Sasho on tue 23 aug 05
A couple weeks ago I posted about venting an Amaco kiln and you guys had a
great response so I thought I'd ask about this too. I have the kiln in
place and the ventilation system is installed and working well (based on
testing the top hole with a flame). I wired up an outlet for the kiln and
plugged it in. Note I do not have a manual for this kiln yet, I requested
one a couple weeks ago from Amaco and it hasn't arrived yet. We turned it
on and watched the temperature, sit and do nothing. So mu husband reached
over to the timer (not sure why) and when he touched the corner of it he got
a shock. We quickly turned the power off (using a rubber soled shoe to shut
the main power off on the kiln) and unplugged it. Obviously there is a
problem. I'm wondering whether it is the kiln, the outlet I plugged it into
or the fact that at the time we hadn't hooked back up the ground to our main
breaker panel. I'm afraid to plug it back in, since I'm pretty sure a shock
like that would do more than startle me (I'm half the size of my husband).
How can I test it to see if it is still "shocking" without having to touch
it? I have one of those light testers that you touch one probe to the
neutral and one to hot, but in this case I'm not sure what would be what.
Should I get ahold of a voltmeter? Should I call an electrician? Should I
open up the electrical box on the kiln and see if there are any wires arcing
to the housing?
William & Susan Schran User on tue 23 aug 05
On 8/23/05 12:40 PM, "Sasho" wrote:
> I'm wondering whether it is the kiln, the outlet I plugged it into
> or the fact that at the time we hadn't hooked back up the ground to our main
> breaker panel.
Hooking the ground up would certainly be a priority.
To be safe, you should have a disconnect right next to the kiln.
Do shut off the breaker and unplug the kiln, then open the panel and check
for any loose/disconnected wires, wires with missing/burned insulation or
wires contacting the skin of the kiln.
If these suggestions don't reveal/solve the problem, then an electrician
would be the next call.
--
William "Bill" Schran
Fredericksburg, Virginia
Carl Finch on tue 23 aug 05
At 09:40 AM 8/23/2005, Sasho wrote:
>A couple weeks ago I posted about venting an Amaco kiln and you guys had a
>great response so I thought I'd ask about this too. I have the kiln in
>place and the ventilation system is installed and working well (based on
>testing the top hole with a flame). I wired up an outlet for the kiln and
>plugged it in. Note I do not have a manual for this kiln yet, I requested
>one a couple weeks ago from Amaco and it hasn't arrived yet. We turned it
>on and watched the temperature, sit and do nothing. So mu husband reached
>over to the timer (not sure why) and when he touched the corner of it he got
>a shock. We quickly turned the power off (using a rubber soled shoe to shut
>the main power off on the kiln) and unplugged it. Obviously there is a
>problem. I'm wondering whether it is the kiln, the outlet I plugged it into
>or the fact that at the time we hadn't hooked back up the ground to our main
>breaker panel. I'm afraid to plug it back in, since I'm pretty sure a shock
>like that would do more than startle me (I'm half the size of my husband).
>How can I test it to see if it is still "shocking" without having to touch
>it? I have one of those light testers that you touch one probe to the
>neutral and one to hot, but in this case I'm not sure what would be what.
>Should I get ahold of a voltmeter? Should I call an electrician? Should I
>open up the electrical box on the kiln and see if there are any wires arcing
>to the housing?
After rereading your message a couple times and making a couple false
starts at suggesting things to do, please forgive me if I just say instead,
"call an electrician." What you did and the way you describe it just makes
me conclude that you're working a bit too far over your head.
(For example, how did you "wire up" the kiln without knowing neutral from
hot? And by the way, 240v 3-wire kilns have no neutral--only 2 hots and a
safety ground. 120v vent fans have one hot, one neutral and one safety
ground.)
For you and any others who want to save the big bucks that electricians
demand, I highly recommend the Sunset Books publication, "Complete Home
Wiring"--about $15 at Home Depot, Lowes, electrical supply houses,
etc. It's beautifully illustrated, and clearly explains everything you
need to know--both theory and how-to.
The following, though encouraging for us tyro potters, does NOT apply to
electrical work:
"Not everything worth doing is worth doing well."
--S. Kopp
--Carl
in Medford, Oregon
Louis Katz on tue 23 aug 05
1. You should unplug the kiln with the power off.
2. If the ground on the kiln was good there would be no shock. All the
juice would be flowing to ground from the case.
3. Yes something is leaking current to the case or whatever piece your
husbnad got a shock from or you have a problem with your house wiring
ground. If this is the case turning off the breaker will not stop the
kiln from being able to give you a shock.
4. If you are not experienced with a Volt Ohm meter I would suggest
trying to find the problem in your kiln, but if nothing turns up
obvious I would call a professional if the kiln is worth it. My first
test would be to see if the case has a good connection to the ground
plug (with the kiln unplugged. Some very old kilns have ungrounded
cases and if your kiln is one of these I would either ground the case
or get a new kiln.
5. If any other appliance has caused a similar problem recently I would
definitely call an electrician.
6. I am not an electrician. Good advice would be to get the advice of
an electrician.
>
> Should I get ahold of a voltmeter? Should I call an electrician?
> Should I
> open up the electrical box on the kiln and see if there are any wires
> arcing
> to the housing?
>
> __________
Leland Hall on tue 23 aug 05
Last time I was in a situation with a kiln acting up I pretended to be an
electrician.
This is what happened: http://photobucket.com/albums/a236/pyromanic/
about three weeks ago.
Please take care.
Sincerely
Leland Hall
Before The Wheel Enterprises
Brian Gracia on tue 23 aug 05
For something like this, if you have not worked with wiring much, I would
get an electrician pronto.
If it was me, I would disconnect the kiln, then check the wiring. at the
breaker. Then I would check at the kiln to make sure it is connected
right. For 220, Black in hot, Red is hot and green is ground. For 110,
Black is hot, white is netural, green is ground. If this is correct, then
I would check inside the panel for loose connections or wires that have
rubbed raw and are making contact with the metal housing.
But, again, if you have not wired much up before, get an electrician to be
safe.
Brian G.
--
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Sasho on wed 24 aug 05
I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I've rewired everything in my
house over the past 5 years as we've re-modeled. I also had to take a
number of electronics classes to get an engineering degree, so I have worked
with wireing a bit and have some knowledge about electricity and how it
works. I understand that white is neutral, green (or bare copper) is ground
and red and black are hot. I have the book suggested (in addition to
another one), and wired up the outlet (which yes DOES in fact have two hots,
a neutral and a ground wire) according to the instructions there. The
ground to the house is now hooked up again (it was removed when we replumbed
the entire house and we forgot to hook it back up).
I guess what I really need an answer to is how I can tell if it is grounded
correctly without touching the kiln (and getting shocked). To use a probe
with the light I need to touch both a hot source (which would be the kiln)
and a neutral source (which is what I can't figure out would be). Or
whether I'd be better of borrowing an ohm meter from work and seeing how
much current actually is flowing and where.
Steve Slatin on wed 24 aug 05
Sasho --
I hope this doesn't come across as rude or lacking in
respect -- take it with a grain of salt if it does.
It's obvious that you've got a short. It's possible
that you're also not properly grounded, though that's
less certain. Some of it depends on your kiln design,
and what's isolated from what.
It's also likely that while you understand electrical
wiring well enough in the abstract, you haven't
learned code or thought through all of the details of
how wiring and grounds (and test equipment) of
different kinds work together.
Electrical work is not as complex or demanding as
engineering. (No calculus required!) I tend to think
of it as a compilation of good, safe practices and
arbitrarily standardized procedures collected over
time. There are some things about wiring that aren't
immediately evident, even to a very clever person, but
that are essential for safety. (Like why you should
never ground to a steam radiator or a water pipe.)
If you don't both know electrical code AND have worked
with 220/240 equipment, no matter how smart or
well-educated you are, you've got no business wiring a
kiln or trying to repair one (like yours) that is
currently defective. There is a risk of injury or
death or burning your studio or home to the ground.
(Check your insurance policy! They may not pay off if
you burn it down by doing your own wiring.)
You need a professional. And warn him about the
shock.
-- Steve Slatin
--- Sasho wrote:
> I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I've
> rewired everything in my
> house over the past 5 years as we've re-modeled. I
> also had to take a
> number of electronics classes to get an engineering
> degree, so I have worked
> with wireing a bit and have some knowledge about
> electricity and how it
> works. I understand that white is neutral, green
> (or bare copper) is ground
> and red and black are hot. I have the book
> suggested (in addition to
> another one), and wired up the outlet (which yes
> DOES in fact have two hots,
> a neutral and a ground wire) according to the
> instructions there. The
> ground to the house is now hooked up again (it was
> removed when we replumbed
> the entire house and we forgot to hook it back up).
>
> I guess what I really need an answer to is how I can
> tell if it is grounded
> correctly without touching the kiln (and getting
> shocked). To use a probe
> with the light I need to touch both a hot source
> (which would be the kiln)
> and a neutral source (which is what I can't figure
> out would be). Or
> whether I'd be better of borrowing an ohm meter from
> work and seeing how
> much current actually is flowing and where.
Steve Slatin --
Drove downtown in the rain
9:30 on a Tuesday night
Just to check out the
Late night record shop
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Arnold Howard on wed 24 aug 05
From: "Sasho"
> I guess what I really need an answer to is how I can tell if it is
> grounded
> correctly without touching the kiln (and getting shocked). To use a probe
> with the light I need to touch both a hot source (which would be the kiln)
> and a neutral source (which is what I can't figure out would be).
Sasho, I don't know which Amaco kiln you have. But since your wall outlet is
4-wire, I will assume that your kiln has 4-way rotary switches.
If your kiln operates the same as the older Paragons that had 4-way rotary
switches, then the line neutral and the grounding wires must be separate at
the wall outlet. If they are not, you could get a mild shock by touching the
case, because on low and medium, the line neutral carries current. That is
the reason for the separate grounding wire.
If you just bought a used kiln and are firing it for the first time, then
the problem may be that someone has altered the kiln's switchbox wiring. If
I bought an old kiln, I would check the switchbox wiring before firing the
kiln. Obtain the wiring diagram, leave the kiln unplugged, and open the
switch box. Trace each wire, one at a time, using the wiring diagram. Take
your time as you do this. While you are at it, replace wires that have
brittle insulation.
When you reinstall the switch box, arrange the wires so that they will not
touch a heat shield or the kiln case. Otherwise the wires may burn.
During the 70s, the line neutral and grounding wires caused an enormous
amount of confusion with customers. For one thing, the neutral is sometimes
called the ground, and the green wire is called the grounding.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
Jim Willett on wed 24 aug 05
Short and sweet, borrow the meter. Measure case to ground voltage and
current. Will quickly tell you if it is 240 or 120, I'm guessing 120 if your
husband is still standing, or real small leakage with no amps!
Jim
Out of the Fire Studio
Edmonton
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Sasho
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:06 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Electrical Problems with Amaco Kiln
I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I've rewired everything in my
house over the past 5 years as we've re-modeled. I also had to take a
number of electronics classes to get an engineering degree, so I have worked
with wireing a bit and have some knowledge about electricity and how it
works. I understand that white is neutral, green (or bare copper) is ground
and red and black are hot. I have the book suggested (in addition to
another one), and wired up the outlet (which yes DOES in fact have two hots,
a neutral and a ground wire) according to the instructions there. The
ground to the house is now hooked up again (it was removed when we replumbed
the entire house and we forgot to hook it back up).
I guess what I really need an answer to is how I can tell if it is grounded
correctly without touching the kiln (and getting shocked). To use a probe
with the light I need to touch both a hot source (which would be the kiln)
and a neutral source (which is what I can't figure out would be). Or
whether I'd be better of borrowing an ohm meter from work and seeing how
much current actually is flowing and where.
____________________________________________________________________________
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You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
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melpots@pclink.com.
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Louis Katz on wed 24 aug 05
Problem with using an ohm meter is that sometimes the problem does not
show up with low voltage. Sometimes a problem with electronics does not
show up unless the electronics are energized.
Regardless of what you do make sure your house ground is good and your
outlet ground is good.
I believe what an electrician does for this is compare the voltage
reading from a hot lead to the outlet ground with the voltage from the
hot lead to a grounded water pipe, but I am not sure.
Louis
more below. The
> ground to the house is now hooked up again (it was removed when we
> replumbed
> the entire house and we forgot to hook it back up).
If you did this you should seriously consider if it is smart to do work
yourself.
> Or
> whether I'd be better of borrowing an ohm meter from work and seeing
> how
> much current actually is flowing and where.
Amp meter that goes around the wire.
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
Lester Haworth on wed 24 aug 05
Steve,
I have been servicing both electric and gas kilns now for three years
professionally and on and off for 8 years. I was trained by two men, Art
Garcia at Keith kilns and Sergio Maldonado formerly at Cress Mfg. and
currently at Laguna Clay co. I have taken some basic electronics classes
when I was a lad and am comfortable working next to high voltages. I do not
know electrical code yet many people say I am an excellent kiln repair man.
I think your statement, "If you don't both know electrical code AND have
worked with 220/240 equipment, no matter how smart or well-educated you are,
you've got no business wiring a kiln or trying to repair one (like yours)
that is currently defective." is insane. I've had licensed electricians tell
me that they refuse to work on electric kilns because they "Haven't been
trained in that area." I've even argued over the phone about something as
simple as incoming voltage to an electrician at a school who emphatically
told me the incoming voltage was 240 vac. And I had tested it the day before
and it read 208 vac. The instructor could not get her kiln up to temp. You
also state in the beginning of your letter, " It's obvious that you've got a
short." This is another crazy statement? All electric kiln owners have
shorts. Electric kilns run on a resistive circuit. They are one big
controlled short! Those of us in the kiln repair business like Dave Sturm at
Brackers Good Earth clays (who is also not an electrician, yet very
qualified to repair kilns.) make a little extra pocket change for our
expertise. Steve, you don't have to be a licensed electrician to work on an
electric kiln. Sash: Call your electrician and have him perform a ground
fault test on the circuit your kiln runs on. Also there is a great list of
independent kiln repair persons at the following website
http://www.euclids.com/servicedir.htm also you can visit
http://www.mobilekilnrepair.com for some good tips on kiln maintance and a
through links page to almost every manufacture of kilns in the U.S. Steve, I
did find your letter to be disrespectful, but I will try to follow your
recommendations and take it all with a grain of salt.
Les H.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Steve Slatin
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:52 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Electrical Problems with Amaco Kiln
Sasho --
I hope this doesn't come across as rude or lacking in
respect -- take it with a grain of salt if it does.
It's obvious that you've got a short. It's possible
that you're also not properly grounded, though that's
less certain. Some of it depends on your kiln design,
and what's isolated from what.
It's also likely that while you understand electrical
wiring well enough in the abstract, you haven't
learned code or thought through all of the details of
how wiring and grounds (and test equipment) of
different kinds work together.
Electrical work is not as complex or demanding as
engineering. (No calculus required!) I tend to think
of it as a compilation of good, safe practices and
arbitrarily standardized procedures collected over
time. There are some things about wiring that aren't
immediately evident, even to a very clever person, but
that are essential for safety. (Like why you should
never ground to a steam radiator or a water pipe.)
If you don't both know electrical code AND have worked
with 220/240 equipment, no matter how smart or
well-educated you are, you've got no business wiring a
kiln or trying to repair one (like yours) that is
currently defective. There is a risk of injury or
death or burning your studio or home to the ground.
(Check your insurance policy! They may not pay off if
you burn it down by doing your own wiring.)
You need a professional. And warn him about the
shock.
-- Steve Slatin
--- Sasho wrote:
> I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I've
> rewired everything in my
> house over the past 5 years as we've re-modeled. I
> also had to take a
> number of electronics classes to get an engineering
> degree, so I have worked
> with wireing a bit and have some knowledge about
> electricity and how it
> works. I understand that white is neutral, green
> (or bare copper) is ground
> and red and black are hot. I have the book
> suggested (in addition to
> another one), and wired up the outlet (which yes
> DOES in fact have two hots,
> a neutral and a ground wire) according to the
> instructions there. The
> ground to the house is now hooked up again (it was
> removed when we replumbed
> the entire house and we forgot to hook it back up).
>
> I guess what I really need an answer to is how I can
> tell if it is grounded
> correctly without touching the kiln (and getting
> shocked). To use a probe
> with the light I need to touch both a hot source
> (which would be the kiln)
> and a neutral source (which is what I can't figure
> out would be). Or
> whether I'd be better of borrowing an ohm meter from
> work and seeing how
> much current actually is flowing and where.
Steve Slatin --
Drove downtown in the rain
9:30 on a Tuesday night
Just to check out the
Late night record shop
__________________________________________________
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____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
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Sasho on thu 25 aug 05
Thank you for the responses! The kiln is an old HF97.
Arnold, the ground and the neutral are seperate wires comming into the
outlet box, but not out of it (the kiln is wired with a three prong plug,
therefore the outlet is as well). I opened up the various electrical panels
on the kiln and I don't see any grounding wires in there. All are either
hot or neutral (white). This seems strange to me, but I have no idea how
old the kiln is so it may have been made before grounding was standard
practice. It sounds like I have the situation what you are describing with
the neutral essentially being the ground. I am anxiously awaiting the
manual which has the wireing diagrams so I can compare that. None of the
insulation is brittle, it is so old that it is actually fabric wrapped. But
I did find a spot in the main disconnect box on the kiln where the wires are
taped together that appears as though some of the wire may have been
touching the box.
Jim, it must be a small leak since the kiln is 240 and DH is still standing
and has regained (was fine several hours later) feeling in his hand.
Les, thank you for those sites. They may come in quite useful. :)
Deborah Woods on mon 3 jul 06
Hi. You have gotten so many responses I don't know if this is a waste of
time, but here goes. I am basically going to agree with some. In my
opinion (and I am not an electrician) the glaring words that you had not
yet hooked up your ground andswer the question. Unless of course there is
something wrong with the kiln, but I would assume ground first because it is
so obvious. I wouldn't worry about getting fatally shocked. You are not
reaching into the outlet itself and touching the wires. But of course, it is
serious. The purpose of a ground is to prevent shocks. I think you just
learned that. But I could be wrong. Your husbands reaction to touch the
timer acutually makes sense. It must be on, to my knowledge, in fact most
people turn it up past the time they expect the kiln to fire to so it won't
shut the kiln off before it reaches temp. One more thing, at the risk of
sounding irresponsible, I think it is perfectly okay to do your own wiring,
IF, IF, IF, you truly trust yourself and read up on it like there is no
tommorrow. I spoke to a couple of electricians who were trying to tell me
that all I need is this, and I don't need that, etc . . . contrary advise to
what my kiln manufacturer was telling me, because they do not understand the
requirments of a kiln. I felt safer doing my work myself and was fastidious
about it. Like I read once, I didn't know enough to take shortcuts, so I
did everything by the book and beyond. But you have to be extremely careful
and really do your research.
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