URL Krueger on sat 6 aug 05
I saw my Ophthalmologist today and asked his advice on
protecting the eyes while viewing cones in a kiln. I told
him I currently use welder's brazing goggles. His response
was:
"Excellent ! I couldn't recommend anything better. They
will protect your eyes from ultraviolent and infrared
radiation which can cause de-lamination of the lens and
glass-workers cataracts."
De-lamination of the lens??? Cataracts??? Neither of these
sound like much fun. I'll continue using the goggles.
--
--
Earl K...
Bothell WA, USA
Julie Moore on sun 7 aug 05
Just to play devil's advocate here. I worked in ophthalmology for 20 years
and none of the 9 ophthalmologists that I worked with over the years felt
that any eye protection was needed because of the limited time potter's
spend peering through the peephole. Their feeling was that glassblowers
spend hours staring into the furnaces and then may eventually develop
cataracts. Since nearly everyone over the age of 60 or so will have some
signs of delamination and cataract anyway the risk is likely inflated.
Julie (retired Certified Ophthalmic Medical Technologist)
(now full time potter)
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on sun 7 aug 05
Julie,
that is what I have been saying for 5 years now in a text
published on Clayart, the Net, and in Jeff Zamek's book.
You may access my text at the following URLs ;
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/Lesions_yeux.htm#English%20version
http://ceramic-materials.com/cermat/area.php?area=8&id=152
Later,
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
"They are insane these quebekers"
"Están locos estos quebequeses"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://retrodemonstration.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/potier/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
Fredrick Paget on mon 8 aug 05
>Just to play devil's advocate here. I worked in ophthalmology for 20 years
>and none of the 9 ophthalmologists that I worked with over the years felt
>that any eye protection was needed because of the limited time potter's
>spend peering through the peephole. Their feeling was that glassblowers
>spend hours staring into the furnaces and then may eventually develop
>cataracts. Since nearly everyone over the age of 60 or so will have some
>signs of delamination and cataract anyway the risk is likely inflated.
>
>Julie (retired Certified Ophthalmic Medical Technologist)
> (now full time potter)
>
>
I am over the age of "or so" and I have already had cataracts, among
other things, and I have had "the operation " where the
ophthalmologist uses ultrasonic liquefaction to suck out your eyes'
lenses and replace them with plastic implants. I see better now than
I did long ago ( I am reading this mail without my glasses).
What will kiln viewing do to my eyes with the implants? The implants
are UV absorbent .
Fred
--
From Fred Paget,
No Tengo Rancho,
Marin County,
California, USA
fredrick@well.com
Julie Moore on mon 8 aug 05
Fred,
I'd be even less concerned about an intraocular implant than I am about the
natural lens of the eye. As they say in Jamaica..."no problem, mon".
Julie
I am over the age of "or so" and I have already had cataracts, among other
things, and I have had "the operation " where the ophthalmologist uses
ultrasonic liquefaction to suck out your eyes' lenses and replace them with
plastic implants. I see better now than I did long ago ( I am reading this
mail without my glasses). What will kiln viewing do to my eyes with the
implants? The implants are UV absorbent . Fred
--
From Fred Paget,
No Tengo Rancho,
Marin County,
California, USA
fredrick@well.com
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
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Edouard Bastarache Inc. on mon 8 aug 05
Hello Frederick,
ceramic kilns are not among the known sources of UV
Here are the main sources :
-sunlight,
-welding,
-plasma-torch operation,
-hot metal work,
-chemical synthesis and analysis,
-photo-engraving,
-illumination,
-sterilization of foodstuffs,
-lasers,
-vitamin production,
-medical diagnosis and treatment,
-identification technologies.
-low pressure mercury vapor lamps,
-sunlamps,
-black light lamps.
Later,
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
"They are insane these quebekers"
"Están locos estos quebequeses"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://retrodemonstration.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/potier/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
Taylor from Rockport on tue 9 aug 05
I would be very interested to see some numbers from some list members.
Perhaps Louis Katz and others in university settings might be able to talk
the physics dept. geeks to come over with uv/ir detection instruments and
measure the radiation coming out of various kilns as a function of time
and interior temp.
The quantification "'short term' exposures" is still not satisfying to
me. Sorry, Doc. After-images can be quite disorienting for me after
viewing cones.
BTB, Eddy still says wear eye protection 'cause that friggin' thing is hot
and junk flies about, duh.
Thanks for keeping us on an even keel, you wacky Quebecker.
Taylor, in Rockport TX
hppt://wirerabbit.blogspot.com
http://wirerabbitpots.blogspot.com
On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 20:37:45 -0400, Edouard Bastarache Inc. TRACY.QC.CA> wrote:
...
>http://ceramic-materials.com/cermat/area.php?area=8&id=152
...
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on tue 9 aug 05
Hehehehehe,
Teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeexan bloghead,
formely from wacky Waco.
"Perhaps Louis Katz and others in university settings might be able to talk
the physics dept. geeks to come over with uv/ir detection instruments and
measure the radiation coming out of various kilns as a function of time
and interior temp." (Bloghead)
I had this done in one of our steel mills, it is very expensive and takes
very
much qualified persons.
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
"They are insane these quebekers"
"Están locos estos quebequeses"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://retrodemonstration.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/potier/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
Louis Katz on wed 10 aug 05
Maybe, this sounds like something our small U physics department will =20=
not be equiped for. The oil spill control school might be however. If I =20=
see one of the moon suit geeks I will ask them. One of them doubles as =20=
an actor and shows his face in our building weekly.
Louis
still jet lagged. About to go into work to get ready for a phone =20
interview on FM 90 Dankwian Thailand, the VOICE OF POTTERY, 30 watts =20
with DJ Yee+. I am hoping the interviews become a weekly thing.
On Aug 9, 2005, at 9:36 PM, Edouard Bastarache Inc. wrote:
> Hehehehehe,
> Teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeexan bloghead,
> formely from wacky Waco.
>
> "Perhaps Louis Katz and others in university settings might be able to =
=20
> talk
> the physics dept. geeks to come over with uv/ir detection instruments =20=
> and
> measure the radiation coming out of various kilns as a function of =
time
> and interior temp." (Bloghead)
>
> I had this done in one of our steel mills, it is very expensive and =20=
> takes
> very
> much qualified persons.
>
>
>
>
> "Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
> "They are insane these quebekers"
> "Est=E1n locos estos quebequeses"
> Edouard Bastarache
> Irreductible Quebecois
> Indomitable Quebeker
> Sorel-Tracy
> Quebec
> edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
> www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
> http://retrodemonstration.blogspot.com/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/potier/
> http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
> http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
>
> =
_______________________________________________________________________=20=
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =20
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Louis Katz
WIKI site http://www.tamucc.edu/wiki/Katz/HomePage
Eva Gallagher on wed 10 aug 05
Bon jour Edouard,
So what were the results? - I imagine looking at molten steel must be=20
similar to looking in high temp peep.
Merci,
Eva Gallagher
Deep River, Ontario
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Edouard Bastarache Inc."
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: Eye safety, viewing cones
> Hehehehehe,
> Teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeexan bloghead,
> formely from wacky Waco.
>
> "Perhaps Louis Katz and others in university settings might be able to=20
> talk
> the physics dept. geeks to come over with uv/ir detection instruments a=
nd
> measure the radiation coming out of various kilns as a function of time
> and interior temp." (Bloghead)
>
> I had this done in one of our steel mills, it is very expensive and tak=
es
> very
> much qualified persons.
>
>
>
>
> "Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
> "They are insane these quebekers"
> "Est=E1n locos estos quebequeses"
> Edouard Bastarache
> Irreductible Quebecois
> Indomitable Quebeker
> Sorel-Tracy
> Quebec
> edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
> www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
> http://retrodemonstration.blogspot.com/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/potier/
> http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
> http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
>
> _______________________________________________________________________=
_______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at=20
> melpots@pclink.com.=20
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on wed 10 aug 05
Bonjour Eva,
it was a very complicated report to deal with, and very expensive.
So, we scrapped it and my friend, an occupational ophtalmologist,
and I made a walk through visit, identified the operation temperatures
on charts and durations of exposure; then we decided upon the necessary
eye protection.
So far, nobody has suffered from "Infrared cataract".
Cataracts due to infrared radiation have a different histology (microscopic
changes) than the ones of the senile type.
So, for anybody who is operated for cataracts, we can know the type
from the pathology lab.
By the way, speaking of duration of exposure, not only the melters are
exposed, but also those who hot-roll different steel products. Most of the
time
they are operating from control cabins protected by tinted windows,
when they work outside of the cabin they wear tinted glasses as suggested
by our eye specialist.
These guys work on 12 hour shifts. That is what we call long duration
exposure.
Glass-blowers also have long duration exposures, hence the "glass-blower's
cataract" described eveywhere, but never among ceramists, even among the
"industrial" ones.
Again, read my text on the Net,
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
"They are insane these quebekers"
"Están locos estos quebequeses"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://retrodemonstration.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/potier/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
Eva Gallagher on thu 11 aug 05
Thank you Edouard for this reassuring info - I think that I will print yo=
ur=20
post out and post it at our Guild - too many are worried about looking in=
. I=20
guess the total time that a potter looks in a kiln maybe totals at the mo=
st=20
about a week of a steel workers exposure? (Maybe one minute total per=20
firing? So one hour for 60 firings - Let's say one hour equals one year =
-=20
so 35 hours equals a life time? - So about 4 and a half days of work in a=
=20
steel mill.
Eva
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Edouard Bastarache Inc."
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Eye safety, viewing cones
> Bonjour Eva,
>
> it was a very complicated report to deal with, and very expensive.
>
> So, we scrapped it and my friend, an occupational ophtalmologist,
> and I made a walk through visit, identified the operation temperatures
> on charts and durations of exposure; then we decided upon the necessary
> eye protection.
> So far, nobody has suffered from "Infrared cataract".
> Cataracts due to infrared radiation have a different histology=20
> (microscopic
> changes) than the ones of the senile type.
> So, for anybody who is operated for cataracts, we can know the type
> from the pathology lab.
>
> By the way, speaking of duration of exposure, not only the melters are
> exposed, but also those who hot-roll different steel products. Most of =
the
> time
> they are operating from control cabins protected by tinted windows,
> when they work outside of the cabin they wear tinted glasses as suggest=
ed
> by our eye specialist.
> These guys work on 12 hour shifts. That is what we call long duration
> exposure.
> Glass-blowers also have long duration exposures, hence the "glass-blowe=
r's
> cataract" described eveywhere, but never among ceramists, even among th=
e
> "industrial" ones.
>
> Again, read my text on the Net,
>
>
>
> "Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
> "They are insane these quebekers"
> "Est=E1n locos estos quebequeses"
> Edouard Bastarache
> Irreductible Quebecois
> Indomitable Quebeker
> Sorel-Tracy
> Quebec
> edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
> www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
> http://retrodemonstration.blogspot.com/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/potier/
> http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
> http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
>
> _______________________________________________________________________=
_______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at=20
> melpots@pclink.com.=20
URL Krueger on thu 11 aug 05
I have been surprised by the reaction to my post on this.
I'm curious as to why people are so reluctant to hold up a
piece of colored glass to their eyes when looking in a
kiln. The filters are pretty cheap, so cost can't be an
issue. It causes no pain or is in any way inconvenient, so
that can't be it. It doesn't reduce the visibility of the
cones ( in fact it helps for me ) so that can't be it.
If I hold my hand in front of an open peep hole I can feel
quite a bit of heat, to the point that it gets
uncomfortable. When I put my eye in the same place as my
hand I wonder where that energy gets absorbed; the cornea,
the lens, or the retina maybe. What effect might it be
having on these delicate structures? Do we really know?
So, since the effort of using a filter is quite small, it
has no effect on your art and the consequences of not using
one might be great, _why_ is it that you are reluctant to
use one?
Thanks...
--
Earl K...
Bothell WA, USA
Pondering the attitudes of people and how we develop them.
Taylor from Rockport on thu 11 aug 05
Hey Earl:
I for one am not reluctant to use my #10 lens (am I remembering that
right?). I use it to cut down on the visible light reaching my eyes as
well as to afford a modicum of protection from peep hole heat. What is
probably being assumed by some is the only protection at issue is
protection against UV/IR radiation. Not so the case as Edouard was sure to
point out near the end of his online article. My eyes hurt when looking
into my kiln so it is a no-brainer for me to use a filter to help reduce
eye strain.
The question still not answered (to my satisfaction) is what impact does
the uv/ir rad. actually have on cone 6, cone 13, etc. potters in the course
of a firing.
In this case, Earl, 'better safe than sorry' only costs us money. Worth
the price.
Taylor, in Rockport
http://wirerabbit.blogspot.com
http://wirerabbitpots.blogspot.com
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:47:01 -0700, URL Krueger
wrote:
...
>
>So, since the effort of using a filter is quite small, it
>has no effect on your art and the consequences of not using
>one might be great, _why_ is it that you are reluctant to
>use one?
...
Louis Katz on thu 11 aug 05
Warning:Stretched information
Heating of the lens causes cataracts when the heating is from radio
waves. It is not just exposure to Radio energy that does it. The energy
has to be absorbed that is converted to heat in order for the damage to
occur. The FCC sets radio frequency exposure limits lower at
frequencies that heads and eye structures are resonant at. Other
frequencies don't get "absorbed" so they don't heat the eye. they have
higher limits. I doubt that these limits even approiach the amount of
heating looking at the cones produces.
At the time to argue the other side with little data. FCC exposure
limts are averaged over time. This would suggest that maybe a hot kiln
for 20 seconds is not as bad as looking for 1 minute. Get a life - you
don't look short enough to make looking in your high fire kiln without
the encumberance of a welding glass worth the risk.
The idea that heating your eyes up could damage them seems pretty
simple.
If you need some silly demonstration that has no scientific basis to
convince you watch an egg being microwaved.
Louis
On Aug 11, 2005, at 2:47 PM, URL Krueger wrote:
> I have been surprised by the reaction to my post on this.
>
> I'm curious as to why people are so reluctant to hold up a
> piece of colored glass to their eyes when looking in a
> kiln. The filters are pretty cheap, so cost can't be an
> issue. It causes no pain or is in any way inconvenient, so
> that can't be it. It doesn't reduce the visibility of the
> cones ( in fact it helps for me ) so that can't be it.
>
> If I hold my hand in front of an open peep hole I can feel
> quite a bit of heat, to the point that it gets
> uncomfortable. When I put my eye in the same place as my
> hand I wonder where that energy gets absorbed; the cornea,
> the lens, or the retina maybe. What effect might it be
> having on these delicate structures? Do we really know?
>
> So, since the effort of using a filter is quite small, it
> has no effect on your art and the consequences of not using
> one might be great, _why_ is it that you are reluctant to
> use one?
>
> Thanks...
> --
> Earl K...
> Bothell WA, USA
> Pondering the attitudes of people and how we develop them.
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Louis Katz
WIKI site http://www.tamucc.edu/wiki/Katz/HomePage
Snail Scott on thu 11 aug 05
At 12:47 PM 8/11/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm curious as to why people are so reluctant to hold up a
>piece of colored glass to their eyes when looking in a
>kiln. The filters are pretty cheap, so cost can't be an
>issue...
I dunno, either. It's sure easier than applying
makeup to hide the fact that my eyelashes have
been burned off by staring at peepholes! (Haven't
lost my eyelashes lately, since using protection.
I used to be young and stupid; now I'm not so
young, but maybe capable of learning.)
-Snail
Dave Finkelnburg on sun 14 aug 05
Hi All,
I've been traveling...goofing off...yesterday spent an entire glorious day outdoors...so I come to this thread late...but want to offer what I learned when interviewing an optometrist for one of my outdoors newspaper columns back in the '80's.
UV, explained the optometrist, is shorter wavelength than visible light, and thus UV is intercepted by the cornea, the lens of one's eye. Without protection, over a lifetime of exposure to UV, one can develop cataracts (the lens gets cloudy) from exposure to UV. Since we really don't know how much UV exposure it takes to get cataracts, the wise thing is to minimize our eyes' UV exposure. In other words, wear sunglasses outdoors and eye protection when looking at any strong UV source--like a cutting torch or a hot kiln, etc. Virtually any glasses by the way, whether the lenses are plastic or glass, will filter out most UV light.
IR, the radiation that carries heat, is a different thing, the optometrist explained. If you look at the spectrum of electromagnetic radiation, you see that IR is much longer wavelength than visible light. IR travels right through the cornea, through the liquid that fills the eyeball, and is absorbed by the sensors at the back of the eyeball. Those sensors allow one to see. If those sensors are damaged by IR, the damage is permanent, and irreversible. Protecting one's eyes from IR is important!
Glasses that filter out IR are much more specialized than glasses that just protect one from UV. Knowledgeable pilots and mountain climbers and such use sunglasses rated specifically for filtering IR. Those are just for IR from sunlight! For protection from IR from a kiln ask for and use something specifically rated to remove 100% of IR and UV from such an intense source. I have heard that #5 welding glass is OK, but I don't know how it actually rates.
I hope this information is useful to some of you.
Good potting!
Dave Finkelnburg in, at the moment, gloriously, unseasonably, cool and sunny southern Idaho...
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