Mary/Adams on thu 21 jul 05
I don't know if any of you can remember being here or even want to. But,
I'm sitting here with a stack of over 40 books purchased over the last year.
Some of them have the information I want and need and some don't. And, I've
probably read it; but, at the time it wasn't internalized because it's not
where I was at. But, I do intend to wade through them. I also have ordered
some of the books you-all have recommended. But, some guidance as to
whether I'm on the right track would be great. After much reading of your
informative inputs on this list server, my intention now that I've got a new
kiln and have only fired in the schools reduction environment is as follows:
1. Pick 3 or 4 clays (I want to try Cone 5 Dover from Laguna, Cone 6 EM212
from laguna and two different cone 10s ) that I want to work with (since my
intention is to try my hand at tableware).
2. Get a good transparent base glaze. Have gotten many recommendations.
3. Decide what colorants with which I wish to experiment.
4. Decide what cone temps I want to try.
5. Multiply 1 x 3 x 4: I want to try 4 clays, 40 colorants and variations,
and 3 cone temps (cone 5, cone 6 and cone 10). Therefore:
4 x 40 x 3 = 480 test tiles
Now that I've figured that out, I will end up with a gob of test tiles, some
good, some worthless. I will want to organize them into drawers
specifically marked: "4 clays (xxxxxxx) at Cone 5 -- dd/mm/yy"
Then, maybe I can get a product. I'm trying desperately to stay away from
being so end-product oriented. This is the foundation work you all talk
about, yes?
M
Marcia Selsor on thu 21 jul 05
Slow down!!!!
480 tests in 3 temps on 4 clays is too much to learn how to do
anything. Pick a clay. work with it. Then do glaze/color tests.
The problem with clay is that it is a seductive mistress. After 40
years I don't go where you're going! I do have 4 clays in my studio
at the moment. Mostly raku, some earthenware to do more red horse
hair and horse feathers on Apache clay terra sig. Then I have some
Coleman porcelain recommended by Charlie and Linda Riggs for saggar
firing. Then I decided to try some ^6 Aspen porcelain (don't start is
it porcelain at ^6 please). I love this Aspen clay from Mile Hi.
Throws like a dream. Now I have to fire it. I wanted to see if I
could do it in saggars as well as carve and glaze it which is
something I started doing a while ago. And I want to fire it in my
gas kiln at ^6 reduction with my "oriental" glazes.
Compared to your ambitions, that seems way too limited and yet I am
overwhelmed. (Also doing home maintenance and remodeling this summer)
So FOCUS on one particluar direction and then diverse in a year or
so. and in another year and another...decades fly by while you're
having fun!
Marcia Selsor
On Jul 21, 2005, at 8:50 AM, Mary/Adams wrote:
> I don't know if any of you can remember being here or even want
> to. But,
> I'm sitting here with a stack of over 40 books purchased over the
> last year.
> Some of them have the information I want and need and some don't.
> And, I've
> probably read it; but, at the time it wasn't internalized because
> it's not
> where I was at. But, I do intend to wade through them. I also
> have ordered
> some of the books you-all have recommended. But, some guidance as to
> whether I'm on the right track would be great. After much reading
> of your
> informative inputs on this list server, my intention now that I've
> got a new
> kiln and have only fired in the schools reduction environment is as
> follows:
>
> 1. Pick 3 or 4 clays (I want to try Cone 5 Dover from Laguna, Cone
> 6 EM212
> from laguna and two different cone 10s ) that I want to work with
> (since my
> intention is to try my hand at tableware).
> 2. Get a good transparent base glaze. Have gotten many
> recommendations.
> 3. Decide what colorants with which I wish to experiment.
> 4. Decide what cone temps I want to try.
> 5. Multiply 1 x 3 x 4: I want to try 4 clays, 40 colorants and
> variations,
> and 3 cone temps (cone 5, cone 6 and cone 10). Therefore:
> 4 x 40 x 3 = 480 test tiles
>
> Now that I've figured that out, I will end up with a gob of test
> tiles, some
> good, some worthless. I will want to organize them into drawers
> specifically marked: "4 clays (xxxxxxx) at Cone 5 -- dd/mm/yy"
>
> Then, maybe I can get a product. I'm trying desperately to stay
> away from
> being so end-product oriented. This is the foundation work you all
> talk
> about, yes?
>
> M
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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>
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> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Tony Ferguson on thu 21 jul 05
Mary,
Put everything aside for a moment. Ask yourself what do you want to do? Do you want to do the cone 10 reduction work? If so, then do that. You are trying to work from too many variables from too much advice (no offense to advisers intended). Figure out what kind of glaze surfaces you like, then a claybody that suits those glaze surfaces and the firing process. Keep it simple. You have knowledge from school with which to work from. There are a million ways to go, never possible to even hit the tip of the neverending ice berg in one life time. If you like soda, build a soda kiln and then work from there you will find, discover and develop what you want. You say you have a kiln...electric, gas, mid range? Work from there.
At some point, limit yourself to one clay body and firing process and explore the multitude of glazes. I am in the middle of this and find my mind wanting to "oh, try this, oh, what would that be like...oh, this would be nice in soda, or this or that" FOCUS Tony!
Sometimes by "limiting" your self you stand to gain the most because there is much exploration to be had with just 3 to 5 glazes, spraying, pouring, layering. Ash, spar, oxide, sulfides--glaze dust mixtures on top of the glaze add even more possibilities. There's a million ways to go and so little time. It's all experimentation, art, science and you. When you feel you've found what your looking for, ride it, and then move on to something new and challenging. Let yourself develop the work and the work will develop you.
Tony Ferguson
Mary/Adams wrote:
I don't know if any of you can remember being here or even want to. But,
I'm sitting here with a stack of over 40 books purchased over the last year.
Some of them have the information I want and need and some don't. And, I've
probably read it; but, at the time it wasn't internalized because it's not
where I was at. But, I do intend to wade through them. I also have ordered
some of the books you-all have recommended. But, some guidance as to
whether I'm on the right track would be great. After much reading of your
informative inputs on this list server, my intention now that I've got a new
kiln and have only fired in the schools reduction environment is as follows:
1. Pick 3 or 4 clays (I want to try Cone 5 Dover from Laguna, Cone 6 EM212
from laguna and two different cone 10s ) that I want to work with (since my
intention is to try my hand at tableware).
2. Get a good transparent base glaze. Have gotten many recommendations.
3. Decide what colorants with which I wish to experiment.
4. Decide what cone temps I want to try.
5. Multiply 1 x 3 x 4: I want to try 4 clays, 40 colorants and variations,
and 3 cone temps (cone 5, cone 6 and cone 10). Therefore:
4 x 40 x 3 = 480 test tiles
Now that I've figured that out, I will end up with a gob of test tiles, some
good, some worthless. I will want to organize them into drawers
specifically marked: "4 clays (xxxxxxx) at Cone 5 -- dd/mm/yy"
Then, maybe I can get a product. I'm trying desperately to stay away from
being so end-product oriented. This is the foundation work you all talk
about, yes?
M
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...where the sky meets the lake...
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Artist, Educator, Web Meister
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Elizabeth Priddy on thu 21 jul 05
you are overwhelmed because that is
not a good way to go about it.
perhaps if you were a ceramics major with a project
due in 12 weeks...
But you want to be a potter, yes?
In 12 weeks, with this plan, you will be making
a viable product and have about $1500 left in your
pocket. [Please send only $19.95 to .....]
So pick one clay. A standard cone 6-7 stoneware.
Ask youe clay supplier for the least trouble, easiest
to work with clay they have. With a slightly variable
range. If you pick a white or buff clay, you eill have
more options on your colors and methods of color.
Then pick a glaze manufacturer. Pick 5 glazes that
you like. Buy 5 lbs dry of each and mix large 5 gallon
buckets. Choose one clear, one white, one black,
and two colors. An iron red and a blue should do fine.
Now make pots. A hundred should do it. make them
any way you like, hand, coil, pinch, throw, slab. But
make pots, not test tiles. Test tiles do not sell, small pots
do.
Glaze all the pots with as many combinations as you can
come up with. Take notes with a little sketch of the pot or
a small number on the bottom of the pot. Innocuous, just
for you to see.
now you pick ten of the things you get out of the glaze firing
and make ten each of those and glaze them the same. Do
this until you can get ten of anything to look the same,
on purpose, two times. So when you have twenty of something
you like, you are done.
Now you should have about 250 pots, all small, easy to price
low. Have a sale. 250 pots at $10 a piece is $2500. You will
be paid to learn. And you will have enough cash to buy either
more of the glaze you liked, some compatible glazes of the
same manufacturer, or some chemicals to start spending a lot
of time and money on (only snide remark included here).
But you will be set up with what you need to get it going. No
books involved. Put the books aside and get to it.
And leave glaze testing until you can make pots at all. Until you
have a working product with a reliable [usually means not made by
a beginner] glaze and clay.
It is how to start. Then you can try other clays. Until you can work
with and around one clay, the results you get will not be meaningful.
Then you can try another. And until you can consistently mix and
apply one set of glazes, the tests will be misleading. And a glaze
on a pot is way different than on a tile.
Look at the minimal cost items thread for ideas. The thing you make
just needs to have a vertical and horizontal surface for the glaze to
flow over and enough volume to show changes and overlap.
Good luck. And I will gladly help you offlist. Others may scoff at
using commercial glazes, but I believe in it. And I am a real potter.
You can even have a company mix up one of your own formulation.
[And one more time for the peanut gallery, I know how to and have
mixed many and much glaze. I do not like it, Sam I Am.]
Truly, what is the difference between buying one an anonymous
company made and one you copied out of a book? This is a
rhetorical question.
Make pots, not work.
E
Mary/Adams wrote:
I don't know if any of you can remember being here or even want to. But,
I'm sitting here with a stack of over 40 books purchased over the last year.
Some of them have the information I want and need and some don't. And, I've
probably read it; but, at the time it wasn't internalized because it's not
where I was at. But, I do intend to wade through them. I also have ordered
some of the books you-all have recommended. But, some guidance as to
whether I'm on the right track would be great. After much reading of your
informative inputs on this list server, my intention now that I've got a new
kiln and have only fired in the schools reduction environment is as follows:
1. Pick 3 or 4 clays (I want to try Cone 5 Dover from Laguna, Cone 6 EM212
from laguna and two different cone 10s ) that I want to work with (since my
intention is to try my hand at tableware).
2. Get a good transparent base glaze. Have gotten many recommendations.
3. Decide what colorants with which I wish to experiment.
4. Decide what cone temps I want to try.
5. Multiply 1 x 3 x 4: I want to try 4 clays, 40 colorants and variations,
and 3 cone temps (cone 5, cone 6 and cone 10). Therefore:
4 x 40 x 3 = 480 test tiles
Now that I've figured that out, I will end up with a gob of test tiles, some
good, some worthless. I will want to organize them into drawers
specifically marked: "4 clays (xxxxxxx) at Cone 5 -- dd/mm/yy"
Then, maybe I can get a product. I'm trying desperately to stay away from
being so end-product oriented. This is the foundation work you all talk
about, yes?
M
______________________________________________________________________________
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Elizabeth Priddy
252-504-2622
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Beaufort, NC 28516
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
*If you are an extra-sensitive
or easily-offended type:
Remember that what I say is obviously
just my opinion based on my experiences
and that I, like most people, don't go around
intending to step on toes and make folks cry.
Take it with a grain of salt.
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Steve Irvine on thu 21 jul 05
Hi Mary,
There is some great advice here from Marcia, Elizabeth and Tony. Maybe your email address
"takinitslo" is the best approach ;-)
A friend of mine, when he was a student, learned a great deal about clay and glaze because his
teacher limited him to just one satin white glaze to be used for one year. Because of this narrow
focus, he was forced to be creative about using colouring oxides in the glaze, different clay bodies
and their effect, coloured slips and engobes, varying the firing temperature, layering glazes,
oxidation, reduction, salt and wood firing effects, post firing techniques, and on and on. After the
year he had a solid, practical approach that could be applied to the full range of clay possibilities.
There is such a huge amount of information at our fingertips these days, it's hard to resist the
temptation to take on too much. Best to get a good foundation established in one area, and then
gradually broaden the scope.
Steve
http://www.steveirvine.com
"Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes!"
Steve Slatin on thu 21 jul 05
Mary --
Let me make an immodest suggestion here -- make it
even easier for yourself. Pick one temp that you will
fire to (either 6 or 10, but not both). Decide in
advance if you want to do a simple firing, or if you
want to 'fire down' your kiln. When you have a target
heat level and a proposed firing ramp, you've got far
less variation than you were starting with.
Then, pick one reliable base glaze that's well-tested
and you can find lots of reports on that's supposed to
work at the temp and with the ramp that you want.
Doesn't make any difference if it's a glossy, a satin
or a matte. Just pick one.
Experiment with it lots. Try it with a little more of
this, a little less of that, with a substitution of
one thing or another, with a variety of oxides or
stains. Keep detailed records of everything.
When you're comfortable with one glaze, and understand
how it reacts, then pick a second. Make it something
different -- if the first is mostly a custer feldspar
based glaze, or G-200, or something else that's
largely potassium, make that second glaze a calcium
based, or boron based. Continue to keep good records.
Developing skill with the second glaze will be much
easier than with the first.
In no time you'll have a set of glazes that you can
use with authority.
-- Steve Slatin
--- Mary/Adams wrote:
> I don't know if any of you can remember being here
> or even want to. But,
> I'm sitting here with a stack of over 40 books
> purchased over the last year.
Steve Slatin --
Frail my heart apart and play me little Shady Grove
Ring the bells of Rhymney till they ring inside my head forever
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katetiler on thu 21 jul 05
Crikey Mary that's a big hill you just sat yourself in front of!
I know exactly what you mean about the book pile - I can match you
book for book :)
I think that one of the things you will soon discover about working
with 4 different clays and with 40 colourants all at the same time -
even if only at the initial stage, is that you will constantly be
looking things up, refering back, double checking & muddling these up.
You will get successes in one clay/colour variation which would work
better in another, something will almost be right but maybe not quite
the right temperature, you will be second guessing and not committing
yourself because of all the possible options that are in front of you.
You will find it difficult to internalize and make something your own,
really own it, because you will still have your distant 'critics eye'.
Most of the successful potters I know (both commercially &
artistically) have one colourway, one clay, one love affair, one
passion. Also what comes of that relationship is a deep internal
awareness and knowledge which makes them the shining star in that
particlar colourway, temperature, glaze, clay. Each respects the
other. None of them apologises for not knowing everything about every
sort of pottery.
Sorry if I am stating the obvious :)
I'd advise you to put the books, clay and glazes away. Sit and
meditate. Close your eyes and in your mind, hold the pot that you wish
to make. Breathe into it, smell it, drink from it, rub it on your
face, see yourself reflected in it. Notice the feel, the texture, the
shade, light or dark, solid and heavy or light and airy. Warm or cool
colours.
Open your eyes, choose the clay and the colour glaze that balance with
your vision and start making. Make at least a kiln full with that
first selection, even if these are small things. Remember you have to
get to know your kiln as well! From those results you can stand firm
and make small changes and variations from an informed choice.
You are already a potter - you don't need a drawfull of sample test
tiles to prove it.
Allow yourself to fall head over heels for one clay, one colour,
before you start to play the field! You will learn more in the short
term and probably the longer term too.
With love - (mine is for honey glazed terracotta slipware tiles!)
Karen - aka Kate Tiler
http://www.katetiler.co.uk
Tom at Hutchtel on thu 21 jul 05
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Slatin"
Subject: Re: An Overwhelmed Beginner
> Let me make an immodest suggestion here -- make it
> even easier for yourself. Pick one temp that you will
> fire to (either 6 or 10, but not both). Decide in
> advance if you want to do a simple firing, or if you
> want to 'fire down' your kiln. When you have a target
> heat level and a proposed firing ramp, you've got far
> less variation than you were starting with.
I have to agree, for what it's worth, with most of the advice given here so
far. Sim[plify to start. a few glazes, one clay. We tried to guide Joyce
to that, but she went off half cocked and now look how confused she is.
As to temp, when I took some classes they fired cone 10-gas, reduction. So
I got it in my head that cone 10 was IT. But I could only use electric to
start, and got, at that time an Olympic and later a Skutt kiln(s). Found
some cone 10 glazes in various books and away I went.
Two or three years later the opportunity to switch to gas came along. In
the meantime we'd built a customer base that was used to the glazes we'd
started with, Cone 10 oxidation. When your whole income comes from pots,
you're loathe to make a major switch that might throw out your customer
base...and it tends to stick you in a rut. So those who suggest thinking
carefully about temperature, followed by oxidation/reduction are right on.
In these areas you need to think long term. Switching later becomes
increasingly difficult, again, especially if you're depending on the income.
It brings to mind the story of Bob Briscoe in Harris, MN. After 10 years of
the production potter trip, he decided he just couldn't face another set of
8. Switched almost overnight to what he's doing now. While he did have
alternative funds, the switch took a couple of years. To his (somewhat)
surprise, many of his customers followed him to the more "artsy" world. Now
he does mostly the high-end shows like the Smithsonian, ACE, etc.
5 years ago, Tony and Sheila made a huge move from "up North" to the current
paradise by the lake. Huge risk. Great worry. But within a few years they
were off and running.
The point is, think hard about where you are now, what you really want out
of clay, and where you envision yourself. Who is your customer. There is
risk in switching horses, but it can be done more easily than you may think,
if your work is of high excellence and you have loyal, somewhat
sophisticated customers.
We're facing the same dilemma. Got a lot of customers that want to match
their sofa with rutile blue. But a lot more that are beginning to like
Yellow Salt, Old Black Magic, a Shino, etc. We look at it as part of our
job to bring them along wit us. Sure wouldn't want Tony getting any one
them. F or C.
So, yes, pick a temp and know why you're picking it. Pick a clay and know
why you're picking it. Pick 3 or 4 glazes for specific reasons. And then
go to work. Do NOT make it complex to start with. The permutations, as
you've surmised, can make it even harder. What you want early on is to gain
knowledge, experience and a customer base. Complexity will come along as a
freeloader. Most importantly, think about why you're making the decisions
you're making.
Only you can really decide. The list is most valuable in giving you "things
to think about.
Tom Wirt
Lee Love on fri 22 jul 05
Tony Ferguson wrote:
> Sometimes by "limiting" your self ..
We aren't limited by technology or having to stick to a
tradition. So for focus, we have to impose our own limitations.
> Let yourself develop the work and the work will develop you.
As Clay Mudman says, "As the potter throws the clay, the
clay throws the potter."
--
Lee Love
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://seisokuro.blogspot.com/ My Photo Logs
"We can make our minds so like still water that beings gather about us
that they may see,
it may be, their own images, and so live for a moment with a clearer,
perhaps even with a fiercer life because of our quiet."
-- W.B. Yeats
Snail Scott on fri 22 jul 05
At 07:50 AM 7/21/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>...Multiply 1 x 3 x 4: I want to try 4 clays, 40 colorants and variations,
>and 3 cone temps (cone 5, cone 6 and cone 10). Therefore:
> 4 x 40 x 3 = 480 test tiles...
Whoa, Nellie!
That's a lot of variables. Let's simplify.
Visualize the work you want to make. Look at the
magazines and books, at the work that speaks to
you. It probably varies a lot, but can you pick
out any common threads? Frequent commonalities?
There's a million directions you could go, but
pick one for now. You can't do them all well, if
you try to do them all at the same time. Later
is the time to diversify. Sure, you can try lots
of things, but nail down some essentials first.
Start by picking a temperature. You can do good
work at any temperature, and there's been some
discussion of the differences. There's not really
a 'wrong' choice here; just a variety of pros and
cons. Doing test tiles won't (I think) really
make that choice much easier; too many other
factors are important. It also puts a lot of
emphasis on chance. By this I mean: First tests
are always a bit of a crapshoot. Don't make choices
based on the fact the one of the ^6 glazes comes
out looking spiffy, and most of the ^10 ones are
not great, or vice versa. You can MAKE either of
them great, with a little tweaking, so don't let
a happy accident (or an unhappy one) early on
make your decision for you.
If you pick a temperature first, then every firing
can be contributing to development of that direction,
instead of scattering your efforts.
Next, pick a clay color. If you visualize work that
makes a place for the effect of raw clay, or work
with an 'earthy' sensibility, consider a red clay.
Otherwise, go for white - it's easier to get 'clean'
glaze colors (if you want them), and it's less messy
when you track it into the house, so your Sig. Oth.
will stress out less. ;) Choose your own aesthetic.
See, right away you've reduced your testing by
half the temperatures, and half the clays. That's
75% of your original amount. (I don't count ^5 and
^6 as different.) Now you can really focus.
Try four base glazes, and half a dozen colorants
or additives, all for one temperature, tested only
on one color clay. (You can try a few different
clays, but for now, pick a color.)
This doesn't mean you're restricted. What it means
is that now you can work on forms, and what glazes
and surfaces will work well with those. It's no
longer an abstract proposition: the ^10 white is OK,
but the ^6 red is also, or I like the red clay with
the green glaze, but not with the blue. Wrong way
to spend your decision-making time! These aren't
abstract questions; they're your work, and until
you start applying the results to YOUR WORK, how
can you decide what's best? Make the Work!
Nail down a solid base to underly your development,
THEN diversify when you feel the need.
In a way, our range of choices can cripple us. Some
of the greatest work, ever, was done by people who
only had one clay to choose from, one firing method,
and a limited range of materials. They didn't
sweat the lack of options - they worked with the
tools they had. Someone recently did research which
showed that people with too many choices often make
none instead. Some choices are good to have, but
you don't have to try all of them Right Now.
-Snail
Fonda Hancock on mon 25 jul 05
I think that is really good advice. Often too many choices are paralyzing.
Just do the work. I just read the book "Art and Fear" as advised on this
list in the past. I think one of the more profound examples was the one
where the students were divided into 2 groups and graded on a) the number
of completed pieces or the weight of clay thrown and fired and b)the one
piece that was the potter's very best piece. The result was that the (a)
group not only produced more but better pieces..practice while maybe not
making perfect certainly does make one more proficient. If the choices are
too mind boggling..narrow them and just do the work.
Fonda in Tennessee where it really is dangerous to go out in this heat.
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