Vince Pitelka on sun 17 oct 04
> taking degree programs in art with the idea that you will
> become a college professor are not a real good idea.
> statistics do not warrant that ideal. the market is more than soft.
> it does not mean it cannot happen, i just means it is difficult at
> best. male, 35, straight A average, good portfolio, handsome.
> apply.
Dear Mel -
The advice we each give is always based on our own experience and our sense
of the statistics. I have vast respect for your experience, and I
understand your motives in these statements, but I repeat what I said in my
long post today. ANYONE who completes an MFA program at least by their
early 40s and is absolutely committed to following the correct path to a
tenure-track teaching position will get one. Those are the people who DO
get many of the teaching jobs, but the reality is that lots of candidates
are not willing to follow that path. Sure, a lot of the jobs go to the
young flashy candidates, but any program worth it's salt is looking for the
best teacher and artist/craftsperson. That is really what it is all about.
The statement you made about people pursuing university teaching jobs when
in their 50s is a very unfortunate truth. I cannot give any encouragement
at all in such a case, because there is very little chance. But I will say
that anyone who makes the decision to pursue graduate study at any age and
completes their intended program, giving it their very best effort, will
derive great benefit from it, and it will open up all sorts of
opportunities.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
mel jacobson on sun 17 oct 04
any teachers/professors that want to comment
on your programs/mfa gratuate programs/ideas for others,
please do so.
and, without question identify your college/university.
don't say. unf, unc...most do not have a clue what that means.
spell out your name/college and email contact.
put in the subject line// college info/southeast u.s.a. (for example)
this is very valued information.
college programs for adults, as well as high school grads
are of great interest for many. any information that clayart
can provide in this personal way will be exciting.
taking degree programs in art with the idea that you will
become a college professor are not a real good idea.
statistics do not warrant that ideal. the market is more than soft.
it does not mean it cannot happen, i just means it is difficult at
best. male, 35, straight A average, good portfolio, handsome.
apply.
a woman, over fifty, in spite of being politically correct,
will find gaining college teaching in clay a very difficult road.
we have several on this list that have outstanding national reputations
and cannot get an interview. woman, over 50, mfa, outstanding portfolio.
no job.
please don't make this statement a hue and cry/gnash teeth...
`oh, mel, don't say that.`
i cannot give you the names, but they are many.
if you heard their stories, your teeth would break clenching your
jaw.
and, i can attest that many computers are worn from the number
of written testimonials that me and others have written.
to no avail. and, it saddens me to report this sort of thing.
but, it is the truth.
taking college programs for your own growth and well being
are terrific. there are many great clay programs across america
that will serve you well. many colleges now have strong women running
clay programs that are very well organized, full of information and
sympathy for adults that are eager to learn. same for many programs
with eager male professors, doing what is best. there are some very
positive changes
in ceramics. it is very encouraging.
if i entered louis katz' program in texas this fall, he would have
me off the wheel, doing studies in a great many areas that i
would never have seen as possible. it would be serious study.
lori leary does not throw pots. she has done that.
she is studying art, ideas, manipulation of historic
and contemporary clay concepts. she is working in a wonderful
program in her own city. a fine teacher at the helm. if she wants to return
to throwing, production work, she can do that. but, it is not
what her college course is about. all of the information,
and all the equipment she needs is right there. wheels, kilns, studio
and a kind and caring teacher that will push her. they are not
doing silly work. it is very serious. quality technical information
is available. quality craftsmanship is respected.
anyone would benefit from a program such as that.
as i have said before, i took ninety credits in painting at the
university of minnesota, after i turned 55. it was a very valuable
experience. i did it for me. i was able to study as a mature adult.
working hard, in a competitive atmosphere...and if you think grad
school is not competitive...get a life.
i remember ken ferguson telling me about a fight in his department.
fist fight brawl.
two kids fighting over three square feet of space, a table. who
owned that tiny space? the girl won. (his quote)
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com
John K Dellow on mon 18 oct 04
Vince Pitelka wrote:
>> taking degree programs in art with the idea that you will
>> become a college professor are not a real good idea.
>> statistics do not warrant that ideal. the market is more than soft.
>> it does not mean it cannot happen, i just means it is difficult at
>> best. male, 35, straight A average, good portfolio, handsome.
>> apply.
>
> My 5 year journey to a masters is , that I just want to have the
> knowlege to do more than throw terracotta flower pots etc. I do hope
> that at 60yrs old I may get the chance to do the odd workshop,and with
> luck get an artist residency in a foreign country to expand my horizons.
John
John Dellow "the flower pot man"
From the land down under
Home Page http://www.welcome.to/jkdellow
http://digitalfire.com/education/people/dellow/
kterpstra on tue 19 oct 04
Mel wrote:
> taking degree programs in art with the idea that you will
> become a college professor are not a real good idea.
> statistics do not warrant that ideal. the market is more than soft.
> it does not mean it cannot happen, i just means it is difficult at
> best. male, 35, straight A average, good portfolio, handsome.
> apply.
Vince wrote:
>The statement you made about people pursuing university teaching jobs
when
>in their 50s is a very unfortunate truth. I cannot give any
encouragement
>at all in such a case, because there is very little chance.
Balderdash to both of you! ;)
Last year we hired a 50-something man for our new art historian
position. He had been an attorney in DC for close to 25 years and
didn't want to move into management in the firm. He worked his tail off
at Kansas St. to receive his Doctorate in Art History. Art is a new
passion for him. His lawyer colleagues told him how jealous they were
of him. He is a delight, a real asset with his life experience, knows
how to budget time, handle students, co-workers, administration, etc.
We wouldn't trade him for any 20 or 30 year old!
I went to grad school at 38. When I talked with Chuck Hindes the first
time and told him I had an interest in teaching he said, "There aren't
any teaching jobs!" I said, "But people like you will be retiring and
someone has to take their place." I treated grad school like a job,
worked in the studio everyday all day...more than twice the amount of
some of the other grads. I was a teaching assistant, volunteered for
everthing...people would call and ask if grads could build a kiln or fix
a kiln. I went. Entered every show I could. Wrote as many grants as I
could. It paid off. I was hired when I was 42.
Now I'm on search committees and look at bad artist statements, bad
slides, wishy washy cover letters and hokey pokey teaching philosophies.
Weak letters of references. The good ones really stand out; their
portfolios are impeccable. They have to be. If they make the short list,
they can converse flawlessly with students and faculty in the interview.
Their slide presentations don't put you to sleep (if it does--their out
and I've seen it happen).
Sometimes life experience is worth everything.
On my way to load the wood kiln with eager students today!
Karen Terpstra
University of Wisconsin-La Crosse
Vince Pitelka on tue 19 oct 04
> Balderdash to both of you! ;)
> Last year we hired a 50-something man for our new art historian
> position. He had been an attorney in DC for close to 25 years and
> didn't want to move into management in the firm. He worked his tail off
> at Kansas St. to receive his Doctorate in Art History. Art is a new
> passion for him. His lawyer colleagues told him how jealous they were
> of him. He is a delight, a real asset with his life experience, knows
> how to budget time, handle students, co-workers, administration, etc.
> We wouldn't trade him for any 20 or 30 year old!
Dear Karen -
I appreciate your spirit and energy, and if you were 50 and looking for an
academic teaching job, you would get one. There are exeptions in every
circumstance, and exceptional people usually get what they seek. But you
know that age discrimination is rampant. Someone who goes to grad school
with a graduation date after they turn 50 and with the specific expectation
of getting a tenure-track university teaching job is deluding themselves.
Diana Pancioli and that lawyer you hired to teach art history are the
exceptions to the reality. I know a woman who is an extremely talented
potter, artist, and teacher, and has university teaching experience. She is
over 50 and she cannot get another teaching job, and I do not know anyone
more capable and deserving. There are lots of others who have experienced
the same thing. They represent the unfortunate reality.
I know that the "older than 50" candidates are probably more capable, and
have lots of spit and vinegar left in them. I am approaching my stride, and
I am 56. But as I said in another post, I am an idealist about most things,
but in this case, I am a realist.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
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