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kids and arts in the schools - lee's interesting

updated sun 5 sep 04


pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on thu 2 sep 04

Elaine's...and...a deteur amid 'piucture' thinking interests

Hi Elaine,

I know you are a very decent and careing person...I can tell
that in a heart-beat...

Now too, maybe my mind just does not 'work' like other
people's seem to...even as dr. Temple wishes up to
understand is the case with

I see your point...
I have taken the deeper look...
And I will
say that Dr.
Grandin seems to posess something of the
aptitude of an insightful,
practical engineer, an educator, and, an able, creative and
sympathetic thinker.

Not near as much say, as Albert Speers, Alois Brunner, or
others I s'pose, and a great deal
less say, than Hermann Goering, but 'some' anyway...she got

What I find with her writing and it's disclosures...seems
about as that.

She'd have been a low-level perfunctorate working for one of
those guy's subordinate's in 'camp' designs or the
long as she 'stayed-in-line' so to speak...

That, and a
sensitivity in matters of autism ( which I admire, and will
be pleased to get back to after we get this other matter
commented on) , or rather, she shows some sensitivity in her
as concern her own modes of perception and associative
disorders and value
formations, or of values attendant to or consequential of
them...and to terms, objects or
of experience as can get mixed up in various expansive
quasi-hypnotic entrancements, or, such of them as have not
been integrated very well maybe, even if
massaged into a 'profession' somehow...and the rest...the
soup in
which these dumplings loll? in effect, to me, a
simple, insideous, quiet, cynical, ruthless, inconscient,
pathological horror.


That while she has learned to live-with her autism, she has
not learned to Live, at all, 'with' Life...

So ... I will
lament, that while she learned-to-live-with-her-autism, she
did so, does so, at the expense of other
and thinking skills, other value-formative-associations,
other Life affirming integrations, awarenesses, and deeds as
well as deeds and expressions otherwise, of their
resultant sentiments.

Or, she suceeds, in 'business' at the expense of such kinds
or qualities
'image' forming value-association abilities as might have
allowed her to form
and translate for herself and others, and by example, the
insights or opinions, or articulate summary comprehensions,
plaintive implorations, or other like explainations or
overviews and
about her experiences in her private world, in the
larger World, and specifically, for present purposes, in the
industry-wide practices of corporate,
factory-'meat'-production in which
she instead, has spent so much time earning consultation and
professorship salaries and fees.

So we find, that instead of exposeing and deploreing these
horrors, she is
them...and is employed by them, to further them, at their
victims (at our, and other's liabilities and ) expense.

That her
contributions to these 'systems', opportune on them,
compliment them,
are rewarded by them, are
intimate with them, and
implicitly condone them, and as they monitarily enrich her
( can she 'buy' a conscience? Or character? Or the 'Golden
Rule'?) me,
a horrific.

Recourse to her web-site may make this more clear, and, in
her own chilling words -

In her article, of 'thinking in pictures', to which we
previously had refered, when she
talks about holding and comforting a young Animal
as is inexorably slated sooner or not-long-of-later for
slaughter, an
as is, has been, and will
be, obliged to eat diseased blood and feces soup-formulas
while a
youngster, being denied it's Mother's Milk or Mother's
even, and in place of them,
and when once weaned, is obliged to subsist on the
diseased parts of it's own and other's kind, of diseased and
dead, mixed with
their own and other species feces, and some bottom of the
barrel grain products and chemical additives
to a small degree, to subsist
on that exclusively, with enormous quantities of drugs,
growth hormones and antibiotics, and topical treatmens in
'vats' and so on, without
recourse to other nutrients or venues....and...

...that she, Dr. Temple,
momentarily comfort this piglet or calf (while holding her
breath against the stench?) in order for it to
feel less
'anxious' about going through some imminent aspect of a
of the industrialized
factory husbandry-raising-slaughter-cannibal-feces-recycle
practices...where, as she
says, "They don't know they are going to die" so we needn't
worry about them being
concerned about it...

Nor according to her, should we be concerned about it...

I can only

She is also quoted in the following article:

The article of hers, (which link, Lee originally supplied as
being about her 'picture' thinking-matters ) leads me
to discover, that the 'improvements' she designs for the
commercial factory industrialization of production 'meat'
products, and commercial factory-produced Animal 'feed' (
'meat' and bones)
being a big component area of those 'products'...

When they say nothing is wasted, they measn 'nothing'...all
the feces and diseased and slops get fed back to the
animals, thence in their flesh, get fed to people as buy the
products, and 'to' the products so fed and raised.

...all of which seems just 'fine' with Dr. Temple...

...that her 'improvements' are not (or are only
accidently or
incidentally, ) for the slight transient 'humane' comforts
ruminant liesures of the Cattle, or of the Pigs or of other
factory-degraded raised-to-be-food
species, but, (of course?) are for the
convenience of their harried production managers,
straw-bosses, and the
perfunctory crude
of the logistics and mechanizations and low level employees,
and for the
they employ.

These 'improvements', are so the
husbandmen, sundry employees, or time-motion accountants,
are less obliged to
countinance a Cow's demur from some Bovine-disquieting
color-scheme, or to lessen their retisence to ascend or
descend, a de-lousing vat's or de-horning or castration's
station's 'ramp'...or for the 'ceiling
bolts' to not come loose when the still warm, often still
sphygmus carcases of writhing de-limbed Cattle happen to
'jerk' (as
she puts it,) in their throes on
the conveying chain's track roller systems as are
suspending them by one leg...and as take them to the next
phase of
the further attentions they will recieve...on their way to
someone's trough, or table as may be.

Not only do I lament for the relation that these overall
have to the Cows...(and other Creatures...)

But, I lament the kind of deferences those practices
show to us, to those of us as eat, or are expected to eat,
or as we are shmoosed and lied to, so we may somehow
continue to consider
to 'eat'
products of those practices.

For which understandings to be up-to-date, to understand
that this is not the beucolic one might expect from say
Laura Ingle's
'Little House on the Prairie' or a 1912 Hardware Store
"Christmas Calandar" or something...

For which kinds
of understandings to be so absent in her conspicuous
innurement, or in her corporate-mentality of sundry
'denial', especially
when she has been so long situated and employed to see and
witness the larger
continuities of the
situation, and to know of it's details and business
practices from the 'inside', and be acquainted with their
unthinkable cynicisms
first hand - for her innurements, and deciets, and
is neither
licence nor excuse.

Too, we find, among other employs, she is an 'advisor' for


Now, too...

For that matter...

Does she hang up-sidedown, naked, semi-stunned and writhing
from a chain around
her ankle from an
electric hoist, as someone a few stations on shall remove
her limbs and head with a
chainsaw? Then with an upward sweep, to introduce the saw
to her torso
to open it up to all the guts slide out? and thence to
jerkily, be sent 'on' the track? with or
without an obligeing 30-30 round or 'bolt-gun' having been
discharged more-or-less obliquely into
her passing-bye of cranium before hand, or if merely stunned
momentarily from an oblique superficial wound, or from an
electric shock, does she
hang next to them then? You
know, just
to get a better idea of their perspective and so on? does
she then 'jerk' on-the-chains she is hanging from, too, like
they do?

...what is the 'view'...from 'there' as she wishes us to
appreciate she is interested to experience?

I mean,
this might not be quite so thorough as one may have
hoped...this 'seeing things from their perspective'
line of hers...or, it is not as thorough as she may have
wished us to

Or, has not been so thorough as I now would hope, anyway...

For which, see ( maybe at your liesure...) ( videos) (videos)

Does she seem to find it convenient to her 'professional'
money getting and
autisticly 'sensitive' image-forming,
corporate-cynicism-cognitive skills
and other sundry dis-associative-value-forming
interests, to remain ignorant or indifferent to these

It would seem so...

merely discovering that moments in them may be made more
convenient to the factory-industrial processes with changes
of 'color
schemes', passing scruitinty of 'Hook and chain suspension
re-inforcements', and

Or by "getting down on 'their level' to see what things look
like to them"?

Does she in fact do this in re-enactments of 'enough' views
of theirs?

It seems not...


"No" she does not...

Does she find it convenient to remain ingorant or
indifferent or in denial of the widening variants
of the
Bovine Spongeform Encephopathys? The broader "T.S.E.s" ? As
these corporate-factory-systems
pharmaceutical-industrial-practices have bred now for a
quarter of a
Centruy of our ingesting and incubating them as an mere
'business-is-business' incidental to these practices?

It seems so...

The 'product' within the product...

As, we find, these varied 'prion'
neural-spongeform-encephalopathy diseases now affect all of
the species of food-to-be factory-raised Animals, Zoo
Animals, and many 'wild' Animals, so called
'farm-raised'fish', and domestic 'pets' as
have been fed the 'protean feeds' made from endlessly
recycleing of diseased others?

And people...?

...( and about as many routine 'tonsilectomy' biopsies as
'tested', now,
from 'people', are starting to turn out to increasingly
contain, the
pre-symptomatic presence of incubating prion disease?)
because of the practices of these corporate,
Husbandmen, rendering plants,
feed-manufacturers,pharmacautical manufacturers and
suppliers all being of the same greater money-machine she
works for? as feed (us, and) their Animal victim-products,
all, eachother, and
eachother's and their own endlessly recycled of
diseased dieing, diseased dead, diseased by-products of
their dead, and feeding them their and echother's disease
ridden feces,
recycleing it all
over and over again out of them, feeding them that, feeding
us 'that', because
it lowers the cost of
'production', it increases 'profits'? millions upon millions
of tons of it every year? and pump
them full
of growth and sex hormones and antibiotics (which are passed
on to whoever eats 'them') to keep them alive just
that length of time needed to weigh enough to slaughter
them for the most profit made for their expenses and

Please see

Maybe most of all...even of you see no it is
short, succinct, and definite...

But consider...

And, of 'how' those "T.S.E.s" have proliferated? Or will
'from here'?

See also

I do not find that any level of heartlessly cynical,
schmoose-sell-lie, money-getting complicity
with "that"
to be
allowed pretexts or cloying distractive gambits of being
'humane' in some detail, or to be allowed abstract
justifications of sentimental moments cuddling an impending
slaughter-victim, while getting paid big
dough for improved 'color schemes', for 'adviseing'
mcdonalds, for a cushy university job, nor, because in
transient abstract
matters, such as how she mentions of her hugging or
'comforting' a piglet, or a calf, as is
about to ascend or descend some 'ramp' which she wishes to
assure the Creature, will be 'safe' to do...

...that Dr. Temple
finds some
satisfactions or outlets of some kind, or, wishes us to
suppose that
her doing so, are
more important for the piglet, for her, for us, or for the
future, than are the
larger ghastly and inconcievably heartless and cruel (if not
even by the definition of statutory Law, to be found
"insane") deeds and practices these are...

The Legal definition of 'insanity' where someone does
not know, "Right" from "Wrong"...

...does she 'know'? do her bosses 'know'?

How are we to tell?

By their deeds?

To serve these indifferent, insane,
multibilliondollar interests... which are
the horrific and insulting
context in which
they, she, their and her income exist...and from them, the
piglet's, calve's, peeping
chick's, an others, and our own eventual
misfortunes have, do, and will, occur.

If there is any hope for mere 'peoplesocieties' to ascend
to, or to
attain Civilization, it shall not be oweing to her part in
it. Nor that of her bosses.

She taketh away...with-holds, opportunes and exploits for
cruelties and lies
horror, far far more than she hath 'given' in any way, of
useful knowledge, insight, manners, honesty, or
Love...or ever likely could, by now...

She is far worse in my view than the worst of the defendants
the Nuremburg Trials, many of whom at least feined some
contrition or embarassment, which she does not. As for one
thing even more of import : she is a paid professional
in the already (almost all mis-diagnosed by design or by
ignorance, or convenient elusion and denial, of)
prion-related deaths of
tens of thousands of people, and in what
may eventuate into the truely gruesome heart wrending deaths
of millions, as well as a
protracted ecological problem of 'prions' now being cycled
outside of these factory practices, which presence and
mischiefs of them may persist for
centuries or more in our and other's species descendants.

They are transmitted to the embryos of the concieved, to
eventuate from there as they may...on time-tables
as-they-may, so, the problem begins to
assume the consideration as well, of from-whom shall
prion-free births, emerge, in any warm-blooded as well as
other non endothermic species?

This...just might become a quite serious 'problem'...

If I were in a little Boat, far far at Sea...

...and she were a wearied swimmer, tired unto her last...

I would not condescend to jab at her with an Oar as I
pass, just to see if I could get her in the 'eye' or


In fact, I would go well 'around'...and with more clearity
and Love than she has ever concieved of...'pictures' or no

That she may be thence rejected even by the appetites of
Fishes...among whom
she may
liesurely descend, to becomeing just so much
mottled and rigid
adipocere, which would be a decidedand harmless improvement
over her
constitution for it's at least benign and waxen
indifference...there, to list
sodden and slow lolling, above or in
the outer reaches of the soft surged whispy clouds of
silts raised by the occasional wiggles or flights of
Flounders or Sole
Manta Rays...or to be avoided even by the Barnacle's adhere
they waft their delicate fronds from elsewhere's
be despised by even the forays of curious Shrimps,
centuries of implicit rebuke, and contempt, by all...and
certainly by me.

That, or to happily find she has elected to 'see'...and to
cease being a grotesque sociopathic parasite on other's
misfortunes and coerced compromise, for money and fatuous
academic prestige of a
college job and consulting fees, to which she obligingly
'contributes' her insights, for big
dough to suggest 'color schemes' for 'mcdonalds'? and for
these continuiung
horrific dramas
to unfold through, and other's terrible expense...

When shall we wake up?

And to what shall we...awaken...?

To horror?

Or to Life...Civilization, self respect...'as'...manners? As
behavior? as behavior as includes our manners with
ourselves, 'with' other
species and other kinds of benevolant beings...and our
behavior to and
'with' and for

She despises all of the above...and gets paid to do it.

...and what is horror, but want of endemic rightness in
something seen or wittnessed? Something as insults the
'blueprint' of our rightful aspires? what is it but some
want of
manners comeing or going?

To me...she is 'horror'...

A metaphysical adapocere 'dumpling' lolling in a horrific
'soup' of other's bones and liquified diseased
ghost-faces rising from
steam of it's simmer...which she calls, or rather helps
make a recipe of, as, to be, the

...she is 'death'...

What I am left with, is imagining her in one of her
consultations with her which she says of the
people as consume these 'products', the same as she says of
the Creatures from whom these 'products' are made...which is

"If you design the 'ramps' right, and change the color
'here', they will stay in line and
go the way you want them to without balking..."


"Cruelty is not an issue, afterall, they don't know they're
going to die, so don't worry...we can just adjust the
lighting 'here', change a ramp 'there', change the color to
something 'calming', cuddle one of them now and then for a
press-release photo-op, and they will keep buying the stuff,
and the dough will keep flowing like it was a monsoon
river...yup boys, we got 'em in-the-pens all
looks pretty good..."


Even Josef Mengele woulda had a lot more 'sense'...

el ve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elaine Ray"

> I have also met Dr. Temple Grandin and read her books. As
she learned to
> live with her own Autism she has been an firm advocate for
others with
> Autism and has always helped to advance and fine tune
treatment for children
> and adults with autism.
> Phil, please take a deeper look at what Dr. Grandin has
done to make the
> existence of the livestock better before you berate her
for being part of
> the livestock industry. True, she hasn't stopped the
industry, or even tried
> to stop the industry, but she has had to fight hard to
persuade others that
> there are more humane ways to treat the animals. This is
a woman who lays
> on the ground with and inbetween the cows to get their
perspective as she
> designs her systems! Dr. Grandin may not be able to
change whole industry,
> but at least she has done an incredible job trying to make
it better in her
> own way.
> Thanks for taking the time to listen,
> Elaine Ray
> Raleigh, NC
> Lee: I also heard Dr. Temple Grandin interviewed. She
is an
> animal science professor and is autistic. Her recent book
is titled
> Thinking In Pictures. You can read a little about it here:
> Lee: because she always thought in images and not words
and this is also
> how she works out creating new equipment to use with
> Phil: may hope she 'thinks' about 'that',
a little
> more as well.
> If by 'Livestock' (and a glance at her article seems to
affirm,) we mean
> our unhappily poised
> ungulate domitae charges, whom we have unilaterally
obliged to become 'bse'
> hosts by making them eat eachother, so that we may in turn
acquire the
> complaint from eating their miserable diseased carcases,
> in our assimilating derivitives of them...but then too,
for us to acquire
> the complaint, may just render moot or of diminishing
interest anyway, the
> contentions of 'how' we 'think', or, if we do (or did) at

Elaine Ray on sat 4 sep 04

Elaine's...and...a deteur amid 'piucture' thinking interests


Whew! For a person who thinks in pictures, you sure use a lot of words to

Seriously though, I asked you to look deeper into this person's life and
that you did. Thanks.

And, by the way, if I ever need anything researched thoroughly - you will
definitely be my "go to" guy!

- Elaine