claybair on fri 2 jan 04
My answer to your question is
Yes.
My question to you is ....
who do you think made the original piece?
The artist was probably a Native American
whose work was ripped off and duplicated
in China. The fact that the original power
grabbed you is a testament to the artist not the copier.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
George wrote>
Snip<
..... THEN i turn it over and wham. a big tag says "NOT made
by Native Americans". and a small tag says shyly "made in china".
well, i suppose, i should have dropped or thrown down the statue
and ran out of the store - to protect myself from some sort of
art brain prions or something. or maybe somebody would see
me and they'd yank my art liscense? (i dunno what i was doing
there anyway, what is this stuff? what is a made in china
john deer tractor for kids? - no matter how well made. but its
so nice and "heavy" and real - so sick of plastic. gee. and
what is a brass replica compass made of great detail made in
india for a few dollars? - no matter how authentic and detailed.
AND what are replica's anyway?? paintings versus photos, theater
versus movies, signed replicas? - headache! - get back to studio -
design stuff - make stuff - so simple)
don't report me but i continued to examine those pieces and
continued to be impressed despite everything...... didn't buy
mind you - the purchasing evaluation algorithm is seperate,
context belongs / embedded there. but i did go back not just
once but three times to try and resolve my feelings with a couple
of those statues in my hand.
if you'd care to look at one here there are some nice pictures
of this whole series at site called "twistedfeather.com". (a
number of sites that appear to be native american feature
these statues and fail to mention where they are made. how
bad is that? that's immoral, or? )
this url: is for one specific statue, not the one that stopped me
but one that appears to show off the various techniques as well
as any (but i have not had this one in my hands):
http://www.twistedfeather.com/natamstatlum.html
if you go to the 'home' then you can see their list and visit their
statues for various tribes.
so here finally is my question:
do you believe you can evaluate an artifact for "artfulness"
without context - by which i mean without knowing who, where,
how etc.
because i think i have believed this somehow until now and now
i'm not sure. i don't want to believe that something goes from a
"object of art" to "complete kitch" because of where it is made.
so many messy questions for the logical mind.
but somehow that darned statue has changed my attitude completely
toward art-fairs and opened up a lot of new questions.
thanks for following along..... i'd like to hear what some of you
think about this. i'm down for the count but suspect i will be back
in that shop before long again.
george koller
sturgeon bay, wi - door county
northport, mi - leelanau county
two great places separated by 100 miles of great lake.
PS i'm a trained e)ngineer, probably of a particularly nasty brand
- programmer - for 20 plus years, BUT i've been working as a
crafts person and a)rtist of sorts for some seven years now. i've
noticed that e)me wants to believe everything is logically resolvable.
and a.me is ready and willing to "suspend" all this and go his
trusted (but sooo fuzzy brained) instincts.
this has been a great discussion point between us.
PS PS i've tried to do some research on this collection and have learned
that this is part of a "native of the world" series so they have ones of,
for example, a series for south america, africa, and others. also i
think this is a later series after several others - of no interest to me
personally (as in yeeeeech). some of the statues are being claimed as
"designed by veronese" but i don't know if this applies to the native
north american series. and i haven't learned who or what "veronese" is.
i'm anxious for more context - does anybody have a clue who designed
these, are they "knock offs"? how can i learn more?
George Koller on fri 2 jan 04
do you REALLY believe you can evaluate an artifact for "artfulness"
without context? =20
Hi & Happy New Year,
i got stopped cold in my tracks while shopping. this does not
happen often. many years of manufacturing related work, and=20
now some seven of being around clay and art. =20
whether it makes sense to do or not i find myself "reverse
engineering" things i see. some suprises out there with labor
being so low in some countries and all, but most things fall=20
pretty nicely into fuzzy catagories from complete kitch=20
to fine art. and i like to think, think that i think, mostly=20
"context free". how the heck am i to judge if something is
better when it is 5% made by the hand of a US artist, or 20%=20
made by hand by a human robot economic slave in bolivia,=20
or 95.5% hand made by happy "prospering" villagers in china=20
somewhere? =20
but "context free" means you have to trust your instincts but
i don't think is is fair or right either - to catagorize everything
in a store as "junk" because some of it is. and i don't think it=20
is "fair" to catagorize everything by a company, or a country as=20
junk because some/ most of it is junk. (so however it is done,=20
however it is used in the bigger picture - i think "context
free" evaluation is an important and somehow necessary part=20
of honest evaluations. )
now... i'm doing some pretty heavy "walk-bye" glancing at items
at a bargain import shop when i ran across what they call the=20
"Summit Collection" of North American Native Statues. they=20
use a process I now know that is called "cold resin casting". =20
most models were of little to no interst, but a few just knocked=20
my socks off, and have kept them off.
let me say i have not sorted this all out. i'm not claiming that
the "rules of art" have been set on their head or anything. but
i have to admit that these objects have shaken my tree abit and
made me re-think things. to go a bit further - i rather like to
believe that when i have an object in my hand, and i really like=20
it, that "context" is largely secondary. mostly, i guess, because
the issues of "where / how" something is often so unclear and=20
confusing. (actually, a nightmare of conflicting total=20
un-resolvable issues - without "context" )
NOW i think this has got to be how art fairs make so much sense -=20
the context is made simple - you are talking to the designer, the=20
artist, and the danged thing is likely made in your neighborhood=20
- relax, you are doing something good in your won little social
economic system, and you can feel good about it. and you can=20
ask your (same dumb) questions directly of the artist/maker =20
--- all is good and nice and neat. (true for traditional pottery=20
shops also...)
but back to my story. i'm looking at some of these native american=20
statues and i am truthfully "taken in by them". tremendous detail! =20
have truthfully never seen anything like it. and also beautiful,
imho, use of material, somehow they seem to "drape" of some of=20
the leggings and such so they are "frozen". epoxy soaked cloth? =20
the colors are really great. most everything is resonating as quality. =
=20
..... THEN i turn it over and wham. a big tag says "NOT made
by Native Americans". and a small tag says shyly "made in china".=20
well, i suppose, i should have dropped or thrown down the statue
and ran out of the store - to protect myself from some sort of
art brain prions or something. or maybe somebody would see
me and they'd yank my art liscense? (i dunno what i was doing
there anyway, what is this stuff? what is a made in china
john deer tractor for kids? - no matter how well made. but its
so nice and "heavy" and real - so sick of plastic. gee. and=20
what is a brass replica compass made of great detail made in=20
india for a few dollars? - no matter how authentic and detailed.
AND what are replica's anyway?? paintings versus photos, theater
versus movies, signed replicas? - headache! - get back to studio -
design stuff - make stuff - so simple)
don't report me but i continued to examine those pieces and=20
continued to be impressed despite everything...... didn't buy=20
mind you - the purchasing evaluation algorithm is seperate,=20
context belongs / embedded there. but i did go back not just
once but three times to try and resolve my feelings with a couple
of those statues in my hand. =20
if you'd care to look at one here there are some nice pictures
of this whole series at site called "twistedfeather.com". (a=20
number of sites that appear to be native american feature
these statues and fail to mention where they are made. how
bad is that? that's immoral, or? )
this url: is for one specific statue, not the one that stopped me
but one that appears to show off the various techniques as well
as any (but i have not had this one in my hands): =20
http://www.twistedfeather.com/natamstatlum.html
if you go to the 'home' then you can see their list and visit their
statues for various tribes.
so here finally is my question:
do you believe you can evaluate an artifact for "artfulness"
without context - by which i mean without knowing who, where,=20
how etc.
because i think i have believed this somehow until now and now
i'm not sure. i don't want to believe that something goes from a
"object of art" to "complete kitch" because of where it is made.
so many messy questions for the logical mind. =20
but somehow that darned statue has changed my attitude completely
toward art-fairs and opened up a lot of new questions.
thanks for following along..... i'd like to hear what some of you
think about this. i'm down for the count but suspect i will be back
in that shop before long again.
george koller
sturgeon bay, wi - door county
northport, mi - leelanau county
two great places separated by 100 miles of great lake.
PS i'm a trained e)ngineer, probably of a particularly nasty brand
- programmer - for 20 plus years, BUT i've been working as a=20
crafts person and a)rtist of sorts for some seven years now. i've=20
noticed that e)me wants to believe everything is logically resolvable. =
and a.me is ready and willing to "suspend" all this and go his=20
trusted (but sooo fuzzy brained) instincts. =20
this has been a great discussion point between us. =20
PS PS i've tried to do some research on this collection and have =
learned
that this is part of a "native of the world" series so they have ones =
of,
for example, a series for south america, africa, and others. also i=20
think this is a later series after several others - of no interest to me
personally (as in yeeeeech). some of the statues are being claimed as=20
"designed by veronese" but i don't know if this applies to the native=20
north american series. and i haven't learned who or what "veronese" is. =
i'm anxious for more context - does anybody have a clue who designed=20
these, are they "knock offs"? how can i learn more?
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on fri 2 jan 04
Hi George,
(I did not ge the little 'Arrows' so indicate the content of
your post in my reply here, so...I am writing atop to keep
them seperate..)
The outcome of an evaluation of something as for it's
"Artfullness"...I think must depend on the definition one
has in mind for the term 'artfullness', or, the election of
that (thence) preminent kind as one make formost, and what
is delegated to the background or ignored completely...and,
maybe that is a, or the, 'context' as could benifit from
some assay...(as well).
Otherwise, the (secondary) 'context' of attributed or
construed provenance, or, the 'how' it functions ( for whom?
In what way?) and ( in various ways, the 'what' IS it's
function? - as, is it drumming up dough to nuke our sorry
asses to the chinee can grow 'rice' in Louisanna? Or? What
IS it's 'function' aside from a superficial impingement on
the senses, devoid of (other) 'context' beyond that?) as, or
and, in what ways and on or in what dimensions or levels of
import, interaction ( or meaning )...is it 'doing'
something...?
I wonder about these things...all the time...
Good to wonder...!
Best wishes,
Your fellow wonderer,
Phil
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Koller"
You'd asked:
so here finally is my question:
do you believe you can evaluate an artifact for
"artfulness"
without context - by which i mean without knowing who,
where,
how etc.
because i think i have believed this somehow until now and
now
i'm not sure. i don't want to believe that something goes
from a
"object of art" to "complete kitch" because of where it is
made.
so many messy questions for the logical mind.
but somehow that darned statue has changed my attitude
completely
toward art-fairs and opened up a lot of new questions.
thanks for following along..... i'd like to hear what some
of you
think about this. i'm down for the count but suspect i will
be back
in that shop before long again.
george koller
sturgeon bay, wi - door county
northport, mi - leelanau county
two great places separated by 100 miles of great lake.
PS i'm a trained e)ngineer, probably of a particularly
nasty brand
- programmer - for 20 plus years, BUT i've been working as
a
crafts person and a)rtist of sorts for some seven years now.
i've
noticed that e)me wants to believe everything is logically
resolvable.
and a.me is ready and willing to "suspend" all this and go
his
trusted (but sooo fuzzy brained) instincts.
this has been a great discussion point between us.
PS PS i've tried to do some research on this collection and
have learned
that this is part of a "native of the world" series so they
have ones of,
for example, a series for south america, africa, and others.
also i
think this is a later series after several others - of no
interest to me
personally (as in yeeeeech). some of the statues are being
claimed as
"designed by veronese" but i don't know if this applies to
the native
north american series. and i haven't learned who or what
"veronese" is.
i'm anxious for more context - does anybody have a clue who
designed
these, are they "knock offs"? how can i learn more?
____________________________________________________________
__________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your
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settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Roger Korn on sun 4 jan 04
Gayle Bair asks:
do you believe you can evaluate an artifact for "artfulness"
without context - by which i mean without knowing who, where,
how etc.
The answer is: context always exists, even if it is only the time,
place, and culture where you encounter the artifact. The more important
question is whether you value the artifact as representation of that
context: does the piece speak your language? This may or may not occur,
independent of differences between the context of the artifact's
creation and the context of the artifact's appreciation. For example, I
don't need to know that the intricate abstract patterns of carvings of
the "Moorish" period in Spain is the result of Islamic prohibition of
representational art in order to appreciate the carving's strong graphic
elements. But that knowledge certainly adds to my appreciation.
So I guess the answer is "It depends...", as is so often the case when I
ponder objects and my response to them. And Gayle: Good question, well put!
Roger the Clueless
--
McKay Creek Ceramics
In OR: PO Box 436
North Plains, OR 97133
503-647-5464
In AZ: PO Box 463
Rimrock, AZ 96335
928-567-5699
George Koller on sun 4 jan 04
----- Original Message -----
From: "claybair"
To:
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: Shopper USA, 2003 - A Question of Art "context"
> My answer to your question is
> Yes.
> My question to you is ....
> who do you think made the original piece?
> The artist was probably a Native American
> whose work was ripped off and duplicated
> in China. The fact that the original power
> grabbed you is a testament to the artist not the copier.
>
> Gayle Bair
> Bainbridge Island, WA
gayle,
thanks & ya but....
the reverse engineering thing assured me (as much as anything)
that there is a whole lot of craft in those statues. i'm dead serious.
maybe 10 or 15 hours? BUT the thing even behind that is that
there are unlimited opportunities to do a shoddy job - as we know
as folks around this stuff - the hand painting alone - i know this -
is painstaking work with no way i can think of to do easy without
slipshod showing up (that is why i picked up in first place - to assure
myself that i could sense this). ie the feathers and leather and
such - i think i know about from model ships -there is no way i can
think of to do without a lot of good honest crafting.
not sure what is here or there.... i mean this is hypothetical in a
way anyway - BUT the whole issue of art "context", the who/
where/how takes me to new places i haven't explored before.
(i'm having a ball inventing rules for running a virtual country under
absolute "cummunity-ism". don't laugh, i'm a programmer, could
model this.)
i have to think that cummunity-ism is alive and living in the typical
pottery shop. now have a new appreciation of what this is - the
whole shop is often an open display of how this works.
and, gayle, now i see clearly that i'm in the "replica" business. didn't
see this very clearly before - but my claybot charley is a made in USA
technical replicator of my art trying to compete in the world dominated
by globali$m. so all answers / thoughts / clues on this are precious to
me...
NOW - if we let context into this there is just no end of questions. in
the mood for a thought experiment? for fun let me concoct one scenerio
for those that think they can evaluate something that represents globalism
using communityism principals:
the designer is a 57 year old alcholic italian able to buy better wine
because
of his contract with a chinese global business entity that uses villages in
particularly poor part of china. the italian is immensely talented and
trained
but has never even met a real native american. but he knows his art and
has studied pictures and used his great experience and talents to make
the originals. ok, now you have particular villagers and one is a young
lady
with immense energy, clear eyes, and a real talent for making / leading a
team of villagers to craft these things. she also has never met a real
native
american, but her dna is....... naw, that's material for a short story)
my point is the context has to be simple, and communityism allows for that
and globalism cannot not. and that that chinese company should rethink
their marketing..... they are throwing away a lot of talent / or i've missed
something.
anyway, what do i know? - i thought OT stood for On Topic
george koller
sturgeon bay, wi - door county
northport, mi - leelanau county
two great places separated by 100 miles of great lake.
claybair on sun 4 jan 04
George,
I guess my thought on the issue comes down to
whether your hypothetical 57 year old immensely talented
alcoholic Italian designer using villages in
particularly poor part of china to replicate Native American
statues has a whits worth of creativity. Has he ever been able
to create an original design? The same question is posed for
your hypothetical young lady with immense energy,
clear eyes, and a real talent for making / leading a
team of Chinese villagers to craft these things.
If the answer is no... well then they are copyists and your
global Communityism should be Copyism.
If the answer be yes... then why the hell doesn't the Italian guy
design items from his own very rich Italian culture then commission
the Chinese girl to replicate them. Or commission the girl to
make something from her rich culture and market it.
Oh George .... now you have done it... this is making my brain hurt.
I'm going to go back to my Duncan low fire food safe lead glaze issue!:-O
Don't worry about what OT means you should hear what I was imagining
PBWU meant!!!
As Robin Williams' hand puppet in the movie "Toys" said......
"I don't know....give me some soup!"
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
> My answer to your question is
> Yes.
> My question to you is ....
> who do you think made the original piece?
> The artist was probably a Native American
> whose work was ripped off and duplicated
> in China. The fact that the original power
> grabbed you is a testament to the artist not the copier.
>
> Gayle Bair
> Bainbridge Island, WA
gayle,
Snip< the whole issue of art "context", the who/
where/how takes me to new places i haven't explored before.
(i'm having a ball inventing rules for running a virtual country under
absolute "cummunity-ism". don't laugh, i'm a programmer, could
model this.)
NOW - if we let context into this there is just no end of questions. in
the mood for a thought experiment? for fun let me concoct one scenerio
for those that think they can evaluate something that represents globalism
using communityism principals:
the designer is a 57 year old alcholic italian
used his great experience and talents to make
the originals.
ok, now you have particular villagers and one is a young
ladywith immense energy, clear eyes, and
a real talent for making / leading a
team of villagers to craft these things.
my point is the context has to be simple, and communityism allows for that
and globalism cannot not. and that that chinese company should rethink
their marketing..... they are throwing away a lot of talent / or i've missed
something.
anyway, what do i know? - i thought OT stood for On Topic
george koller
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 4 jan 04
Hi Roger, Gayle, all..
...was this not (also) the logic as underlay the reception
of the
'Trojan Horse'?
Phil
in 35 degree and 'sunny' lasvegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Korn"
> Gayle Bair asks:
> do you believe you can evaluate an artifact for
"artfulness"
> without context - by which i mean without knowing who,
where,
> how etc.
>
>
> The answer is: context always exists, even if it is only
the time,
> place, and culture where you encounter the artifact. The
more important
> question is whether you value the artifact as
representation of that
> context: does the piece speak your language? This may or
may not occur,
> independent of differences between the context of the
artifact's
> creation and the context of the artifact's appreciation.
For example, I
> don't need to know that the intricate abstract patterns of
carvings of
> the "Moorish" period in Spain is the result of Islamic
prohibition of
> representational art in order to appreciate the carving's
strong graphic
> elements. But that knowledge certainly adds to my
appreciation.
>
> So I guess the answer is "It depends...", as is so often
the case when I
> ponder objects and my response to them. And Gayle: Good
question, well put!
>
> Roger the Clueless
>
> --
> McKay Creek Ceramics
> In OR: PO Box 436
> North Plains, OR 97133
> 503-647-5464
>
> In AZ: PO Box 463
> Rimrock, AZ 96335
> 928-567-5699
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at melpots@pclink.com.
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