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was: signing pots/date turnover

updated sat 20 dec 03

 

Vince Pitelka on wed 17 dec 03


> Since this is an ever growing list and we are all talking about signing
> pots, I thought I would throw this out. When one signs their pots, and
> if you put a year for a date, when do you start putting the next year?

LaurieJean -
I appreciate your question, although it does surprise me a bit. The date
you put on the bottom of a pot is the date it was completed, and has nothing
to do with when the pot is sold.
Best wishes -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/

Earl Brunner on wed 17 dec 03


I know potters that won't date a pot because sometimes shows limit work
to 'within the last year" and that might not be practical for one reason
or another. Some will also either change their mark slightly from year
to year or else use a combination of marks either changing the marks or
the relationships of one mark to another to denote the different years
for themselves. I also know a potter who uses both Coleman Porcelain
and Bee Mix and when bisqued they are difficult to tell apart, so he
puts a mark on one of them, either a C for Coleman or a B for Bee Mix.
This is critical because the glaze responses are quite different on the
two clays.

-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of LaurieJean
gombar
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:52 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: was: signing pots/date turnover

Hi!
Since this is an ever growing list and we are all talking about signing
pots, I thought I would throw this out. When one signs their pots, and
if you put a year for a date, when do you start putting the next year?
A: only when that year has changed starting Jan 1st...NO EXCEPTIONS! ;)
B: A bit before (in the month of December), since the pots won't see
customers or the sales floor until after the new year even though they
were made at the beginning of December or in the middle of December.
C: Both years... Like 2003-04 something like that.
D: other - none of the above...

I am sure this has been discussed before.....
LJ

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LaurieJean gombar on wed 17 dec 03


Hi!
Since this is an ever growing list and we are all talking about signing
pots, I thought I would throw this out. When one signs their pots, and
if you put a year for a date, when do you start putting the next year?
A: only when that year has changed starting Jan 1st...NO EXCEPTIONS! ;)
B: A bit before (in the month of December), since the pots won't see
customers or the sales floor until after the new year even though they
were made at the beginning of December or in the middle of December.
C: Both years... Like 2003-04 something like that.
D: other - none of the above...

I am sure this has been discussed before.....
LJ

Sam or Mary Yancy on wed 17 dec 03


I sign/scribe into the clay bottom or back with my initials: i.e. (SLY) and below that the clay cone - followed by the year - i.e. (10 - 99). I do this so if I ever see a piece I like or seem to remember again in later years, I will be able to see if it is mine and the clay cone and year made. Sam in daly city

LaurieJean gombar wrote:Hi!
Since this is an ever growing list and we are all talking about signing
pots, I thought I would throw this out. When one signs their pots, and
if you put a year for a date, when do you start putting the next year?
A: only when that year has changed starting Jan 1st...NO EXCEPTIONS! ;)
B: A bit before (in the month of December), since the pots won't see
customers or the sales floor until after the new year even though they
were made at the beginning of December or in the middle of December.
C: Both years... Like 2003-04 something like that.
D: other - none of the above...

I am sure this has been discussed before.....
LJ

______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.

Janet Kaiser on thu 18 dec 03


The answer is "A" if it isn't "D" :o)

And it applies to the day you are applying the date, not
necessarily when the pot was made or finally finished. So if
impressed before biscuit firing in December then glost fired in
January, sobeit stamped in the year before the pot is glazed and
subsequently sold.

However, I personally would not use 2003, 2004 or whatever if I
did want to leave a record of the precise year the pot was made
(which is just personal preference). A simple code is not so
obvious (back to my secretive nature?) and it prevents uninformed
people making negative judgements... "Hey! This pot says 1999 on
the bottom"... "You STILL not sold it?"... "I'll give you ten
quid for it... I really don`t think it is that bad..."

Just my experience.

Sincerely

Janet Kaiser

*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
>I thought I would throw this out. When one signs their pots,
and
>if you put a year for a date, when do you start putting the next
year?
>A: only when that year has changed starting Jan 1st...NO
EXCEPTIONS! ;)
>B: A bit before (in the month of December), since the pots won't
see
>customers or the sales floor until after the new year even
though they
>were made at the beginning of December or in the middle of
December.
>C: Both years... Like 2003-04 something like that.
>D: other - none of the above...

*** THE MAIL FROM LaurieJean gombar ENDS HERE ***
***********************************************************
The top posted mail was sent by Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art : Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : Wales : UK
Centre of Excellence for The Arts
Home of The International Potters' Path
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Open: 13.00 to 17.00hrs : Tuesday to Saturday
************** AVG Virus Protected ********************

Kurt Wild on thu 18 dec 03


Janet wrote:
>............ I personally would not use 2003, 2004 or whatever if I
>did want to leave a record of the precise year the pot was made
>(which is just personal preference). A simple code is not so
>obvious (back to my secretive nature?) and it prevents uninformed
>people making negative judgements... "Hey! This pot says 1999 on
>the bottom"... "You STILL not sold it?"... "I'll give you ten
>quid for it... I really don`t think it is that bad...".....

I believe a lot relative to signing with a date depends on the venue in
which the pot is sold. I date my pieces with an underglaze marker and date
it on the day I finish decorating the piece. Now about venue - most of my
pieces are recently being bought by pottery collectors who eagerly grab any
history of a pot that they can get a hold of. Non - collectors don't seem
to be bothered by dating the piece. Years ago I felt as Janet did about
"older" pots - not any more. That's my personal opinion


Kurt

John K Dellow on fri 19 dec 03


I agree with vince , I stamp all my terra-cotta with a makers mark as is
the tradition with tera-cotta.
After turning I date stamp the base .
John

Vince Pitelka wrote:

>LaurieJean -
>I appreciate your question, although it does surprise me a bit. The date
>you put on the bottom of a pot is the date it was completed, and has nothing
>to do with when the pot is sold.
>Best wishes -
>- Vince
>
>
>

John Dellow "the flower pot man"
From the land down under
Home Page http://www.welcome.to/jkdellow
http://digitalfire.com/education/people/dellow/

LaurieJean gombar on fri 19 dec 03


Hi!

Vince-
Well, at this time I am decorating and doing all signing with underglaze
before the piece is even bisqued. I know in my head with my track
record for filling a kiln and getting it fired... With the holidays... I
may not get them finished (glazed fired) till the beginning of January.
So a pot is not complete until it is fired right? And by then how does
one put a date or year on it?


"I appreciate your question, although it does surprise me a bit. The
date you put on the bottom of a pot is the date it was completed, and
has nothing to do with when the pot is sold. Best wishes -
- Vince"

Janet-
A few things come to my mind... Several comebacks...

Pots are like friends and fine wine and are better with age? (not sure
if I heard parts of that or made it up...)

Well, it seems that the right person has just not seen that particular
(___X___) yet.. And when they do, they will buy it and love it.

Like I have a good friend that just networked and showed her boyfriend a
cookiejar I made... I had put a squirrel on it... He got it for his
grandmother who has always LOVED squirrels for Christmas. There is a
great deal of satisfaction for me knowing that unique pot is going to a
unique woman who will love it till the end. It is still on my
website... I make a lot of different stuff, decorate it differently,
finding my way... "Readieness of execution.".. Keep going and get the
pots out there.
If ya'll are interested: www.theurnstudio.com or for a more direct
route to the pot in question...
http://www.crematorialurns.com/bignut.htm

LJ


"The inevitable, subsequent thought is, "why has it not sold, if it is
already X years old?" There is then quite logically "something wrong"
with that pot. It must surely be a lemon if it has not sold in all that
time?"

Vince Pitelka on fri 19 dec 03


> Well, at this time I am decorating and doing all signing with underglaze
> before the piece is even bisqued. I know in my head with my track
> record for filling a kiln and getting it fired... With the holidays... I
> may not get them finished (glazed fired) till the beginning of January.
> So a pot is not complete until it is fired right? And by then how does
> one put a date or year on it?

LaurieJean -
In that case, it would certainly be appropriate to stockpile the bisque,
partially or completely decorated, and then apply the date with underglaze
before you fire it. Usually when a painter or sculptor dates a piece in
such a way that it identifies a range of time, it is a matter many years or
decades. If we are talking about a matter of months or up to a year, then I
agree that the completion date should be when the piece is glazed.
Best wishes -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/

Janet Kaiser on fri 19 dec 03


Dear Kurt

I know I was not expressing myself too clearly and tend to
confuse matters by stating my attitude and experience whilst
wearing both my artist/maker's hat and my gallerist's hat at the
same time. But just for the record, that reported speech was how
some potential buyers think, not what I think myself about dating
in an obvious manner. As your experience illustrates, we all
evolve and what was considered a hindrance years ago, can become
a positive asset over time and as one develops in the profession.

There are two very different scenarios here. When someone is
high-profile, their work becomes highly collectible and it all
sells straight out of the kiln or in the first five minutes of an
exhibition preview (like yours) it is then sam-fairly-mackonnacky
whether it is dated or not, but if it is, then that becomes part
of the attraction and a little value-added extra for their
clients, because it is in the hallmark tradition.

Work which may conceivably take months or even years to sell is
quite another kettle of fish *in my experience* and so the advice
I give to all early-career makers and artists it to avoid overt
numeric dating, whether that be on a pot, a painting or an
etching. The exception are jewellers working in precious metals
here in the UK, because their work is dated for them through the
application of a hallmark at the assay office. Even then it is
"coded" and only obvious to the knowledgeable or someone with a
handy reference book in their pocket.

The dating issue really has less to do with the venue, and much
more to do with the buyer and their attitude towards the pot
and/or its maker. To be honest, most ordinary folk do not think
of contemporary pots in any terms of age, except that they are
"new". BUT, when they are confronted with a date on the bottom
and therefore a time-scale, they then (and only then) think of
that pot and hence its age in the same terms they would a new
dishwasher, car or whatever sitting in a showroom... The
inevitable, subsequent thought is, "why has it not sold, if it is
already X years old?" There is then quite logically "something
wrong" with that pot. It must surely be a lemon if it has not
sold in all that time?

On the other hand, no matter what the venue, the "informed" buyer
or collector of work by a particular artist/maker, is going to
concentrate on the little "extras" that they can glean from any
one piece. They will be delighted to source work which they deem
is missing from their own collection or work from the year/s that
have hitherto been counted as a low-production periods and
therefore what they consider to be "rare". (= more added value).
These are dedicated pot hunters and they are quite a different
set to which one is "catering", both as an artist/maker and as a
gallerist.

Until someone's work reaches that recognition level of having
their own faithful followers and thence may be considered as a
Name in wider terms (regionally, nationally and eventually
internationally), the majority of viewers are going to fall in
the "ordinary" class where each pot is simply the work of an
unknown potter and is judged strictly on its own merit. No "added
value" from being the work of a recognised maker to "exploit"
there.

Put in a nutshell: well-known NAMES can happily make and sell BAD
POTS, whereas no-name makers have to make GOOD POTS to sell and
so they can survive long enough to become NAMES, so they can make
BAD POTS which will always sell! Yes, it is a paradox, but that
is the way it is. And no, I am not saying that Names only make
bad pots! Just they can get away with more lemons than others...

Beyond that, early career potters/makers do not need and should
not knowingly put anything at all in the way of preventing a sale
of their work. Some things are very obvious to the most
inexperienced potter, like poor/weak design, decoration, faulty
technical aspects or whatever, but these little details may not
be quite so apparent. Anyway, that, in my opinion, is why it is
best to keep off overt dating methods, until one is approaching
the Big Time. If these finer points are not pointed out, they
have to be learned the hard way... By first-hand experience. My
objective is to save someone, somewhere a little time and effort.

But maybe not... I think I will just go crawl under a stone and
hibernate...

Sincerely

Janet Kaiser

*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
>>............ I personally would not use 2003, 2004 or whatever
if I
>>did want to leave a record of the precise year the pot was made
>>(which is just personal preference). A simple code is not so
>>obvious (back to my secretive nature?) and it prevents
uninformed
>>people making negative judgements... "Hey! This pot says 1999
on
>>the bottom"... "You STILL not sold it?"... "I'll give you ten
>>quid for it... I really don`t think it is that bad...".....
>
>I believe a lot relative to signing with a date depends on the
venue in
>which the pot is sold. I date my pieces with an underglaze
marker and date
>it on the day I finish decorating the piece. Now about venue -
most of my
>pieces are recently being bought by pottery collectors who
eagerly grab any
>history of a pot that they can get a hold of. Non - collectors
don't seem
>to be bothered by dating the piece. Years ago I felt as Janet
did about
>"older" pots - not any more. That's my personal opinion

*** THE MAIL FROM Kurt Wild ENDS HERE ***
***********************************************************
The top posted mail was sent by Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art : Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : Wales : UK
Centre of Excellence for The Arts
Home of The International Potters' Path
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Open: 13.00 to 17.00hrs : Tuesday to Saturday
************** AVG Virus Protected ********************