David Hendley on fri 5 sep 03
I sometimes change around the order of the ingredients in glazes
that I get from others.
When I calculate a glaze, when finished, I often switch the order
of the ingredients.
I don't go by any consistent rules, but some things just make sense
to me.
1. Ingredients that supply several elements come first, as you
mentioned. This means that feldspar almost always comes first in
a cone 10 glaze.
2. Percentage of ingredients in descending order. Again, this
means that feldspar will usually come first. This is also handy for
weighing when there are 2 or 3 ingredients of the same amount.
3. Additives and colorants come last. This makes sense because
they are not part of the glaze calculation, plus they are usually
a small percentage of the glaze and fit naturally with rule #2.
4. Special situations. Sometimes, for ease of weighing, for
instance, to reduce the use of the smaller counterweights
on the scales. Sometimes, rule #1 and #2 are in conflict.
This typically happens with silica, as it is the last element
added when calculating a glaze, but is often a pretty high
percentage of the glaze. I usually leave it last, but before
the additives.
This is just what I am used to. I don't think there is any way
things "should" be listed, but I think these ideas are the
most commonly used.
David Hendley
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
>
> I am wondering is there is an order that the ingredients should be listed
> in a glaze recipe, specifically for cone 10.
>
Dave Finkelnburg on fri 5 sep 03
John,
Here's what works for me.
I put the fluxes first, usually the pure fluxes like whiting, barium
carbonate, strontium carbonate, etc, then the fluxes plus silica, such as
talc and wollastonite. Then I'll list frits. After that I list the
ingredients that clearly combine fluxes with alumina and silica -- namely
the feldspars. I even tend to list the most active feldspars first, like
spodumene or nephelene syenite, then the less active melting feldspars like
Custer or G-200. Then I will list clays, usually secondary clay first, then
kaolin. Finally, silica. I will list suspenders after all that, and
colorants at the very last.
This is entirely arbitrary, but for me it creates a mental connection
between the ingredients and the Seger formula I calculate for each recipe.
It helps when I go to substituting or adjusting ingredient quantities
because it helps me anticipate how the changes will affect the Seger
formula.
As the august Mr. Pitelka writes, this, "is only my own self-righteous
opinion. " :-)
Good glazing!
Dave Finkelnburg, caressed by the sound of the cricket chorus on one
more glorious summer evening in Idaho
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Britt"
> I am wondering is there is an order that the ingredients should be listed
> in a glaze recipe, specifically for cone 10.
hmurrow@EARTHLINK.NET on fri 5 sep 03
Dear John;
I'll bet this question came about when you looked at all the entries
for your upcoming Lark Book! I favor writing them in this order:
feldspar(s), syenite
feldspathic-like (lepidolite, petalite, spodumene)
alkaline fluxes (lithium, sodium, potassium)
alkaline earth fluxes (magnesium, calcium, strontium, barium)
odd fluxes & flux mixtures (dolomite, cryolite)
flux/glassformer mixtures (bone ash, wollastonite, talc, colemanite,
various frits)
glassformers (silica, phosphorus, boron, titanium, zircon)
clays (ball, kaolin, etc.)
miscellaneous metals, etc (zinc, iron, copper, tin, etc.)
amendments (vee-gum T, bentonite, etc.)
That's how I learned, and it has helped me keep order in my head for 46
years.........well I think so anyway, your mileage may vary. there are
reasons for this, having to do with the calculation of glazes, which I
used to do by 'hand' with a slide rule!
Hank in Eugene
www.murrow.biz/hank
On Friday, September 5, 2003, at 04:59 PM, John Britt wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I am wondering is there is an order that the ingredients should be
> listed
> in a glaze recipe, specifically for cone 10. I have never seen a
> consistent order but was wondering anyone else has
> come across one or a rational behind an order of ingredients. (Aside
> from the one used to calculate the UMF which puts the most complicated
> materials first to assist in satisfying oxide requirements.)
>
> An example of might be:
>
> Feldspar
> whiting
> silica
> kaolin/clay
> dolomite
> talc
> mag. carb
> lithium carb
> Gerstley borates/frits
> barium carb
> strontium carb
> Zinc Oxide
> bentonite
> CMC, etc
>
> I would appreciate any ideas on the subject,
Lois on fri 5 sep 03
I like to list my glaze ingredients in order of amount. Largest amount first
smallest last. Helps to make weighing out easier!
Lois
--
Louis Katz on fri 5 sep 03
Calcium Borates
Sodium Borates
Borate Frits
Other special purpose frits
Other frits
Lithium Alumina Silicates
Feldspars and the like
Sources of Magnesium
Wollastonite
Whiting if pure
Clays
silica
additions for color and texture.
If you are just writitng them down for mixing try largest quantity
first.
The above order makes doing glaze calc easier, but when you get to
clays you have to go up and adjust.
A better technique in glaze calc is to solve three simultaineous linear
equations for AL203, Na2O and K2O in two spars and a clay and then you
don't have to monkey around every time you have to do the calculations.
If you then put together a generalized solution for three equations you
can substitute ingredients to your hearts content. Wish I had the
patience for all this math. I have only solved for two, try:
http://falcon.tamucc.edu/~lkatz/gc1/input.htm
Louis
On Friday, September 5, 2003, at 06:59 PM, John Britt wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I am wondering is there is an order that the ingredients should be
> listed
> in a glaze recipe, specifically for cone 10.
>
> I have never seen a consistent order but was wondering anyone else has
> come across one or a rational behind an order of ingredients. (Aside
> from
> the one used to calculate the UMF which puts the most complicated
> materials first to assist in satisfying oxide requirements.)
>
> An example of might be:
>
> Feldspar
> whiting
> silica
> kaolin/clay
> dolomite
> talc
> mag. carb
> lithium carb
> Gerstley borates/frits
> barium carb
> strontium carb
> Zinc Oxide
> bentonite
> CMC, etc
>
> I would appreciate any ideas on the subject,
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Britt
> Penland Clay
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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>
Michael Wendt on fri 5 sep 03
John Britt
Penland Clay
wrote:
>Hello all,
I am wondering is there is an order that the ingredients should be listed
>in a glaze recipe, specifically for cone 10.
Good idea John!
I always try to list the ingredients in my glazes by the descending amount
of each ingredient. Thus if the largest amount is Feldspar, it occurs first,
and if the second largest amount is whiting, I list it second and so on. The
reason I do this is to assist me in avoiding formulation errors.
I start with an empty bucket, add more water than the glaze will need to end
up with and weigh that. I write it down and go from there. That way, if I am
interupted during a batch, weighing the current amount will tell me how far
along on the ingredients list I have gotten.
Even then, I never put a batch into service until I have tested it side by
side with the original glaze I am trying to formulate.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
wendtpot@lewiston.com
Craig Martell on fri 5 sep 03
John Britt axed:
>I am wondering is there is an order that the ingredients should be listed
>in a glaze recipe, specifically for cone 10.
Hello John:
I put the cheapest stuff at the top and the most expensive stuff at the bottom.
Actually, I list the fluxes first, then the amphoterics, and silica
last. This is the base stuff. I put colorants, suspenders, opacifiers at
the very bottom. So, as the molecular listing is flux, amphoterics, silica
listed from left to right, the recipe reads in the same order from top to
bottom.
This is just how I do it, not some unknown law of proper glaze configuration.
regards, Craig Martell Hopewell, Oregon
John Britt on fri 5 sep 03
Hello all,
I am wondering is there is an order that the ingredients should be listed
in a glaze recipe, specifically for cone 10.
I have never seen a consistent order but was wondering anyone else has
come across one or a rational behind an order of ingredients. (Aside from
the one used to calculate the UMF which puts the most complicated
materials first to assist in satisfying oxide requirements.)
An example of might be:
Feldspar
whiting
silica
kaolin/clay
dolomite
talc
mag. carb
lithium carb
Gerstley borates/frits
barium carb
strontium carb
Zinc Oxide
bentonite
CMC, etc
I would appreciate any ideas on the subject,
Thanks,
John Britt
Penland Clay
Stephani Stephenson on sat 6 sep 03
well I am quite impressed by the high falutin' lists of materials all
you brainiac guys submitted!
at the risk of exposing just how little brain space I have left to
remember such a list...may I humbly submit the following:
1. I prefer to order my glaze ingredients by fax, but then I tend to
verify it by telephone
OK just kidding, here goes:
1. never put frit or spodumene in first. it will end up stuck at the
bottom anyway, so no use putting it there to begin with.
2 Start with the white or off white powdered ingredients which have the
highest quantity, i.e. largest weight on the scale. If you have two
ingredients that are the same % do them one right after the other so you
don't have to waste time adjusting the scale. Work from the high weight
down to the low weights, with the exception of rule # 1.
3. if you have a long list of ingredients, add one that is a different
color somewhere in the middle. I have one glaze that has about 9
ingredients. I like to add the dry clay (usually ball clay or redart)
right after the first two or three major white or off white
ingredients but before all the other minor white or off white
ingredients.
The red or gray colored clay acts as sort of an indicator layer,
because right about then, the phone will ring, the propane man will come
to fill the tank, though he NEVER shows up on this day, the cat will
knock something off the shelf , The UPS driver will be at the front door
even though they NEVER show up at this time of day, a firetruck will
show up, (wrong address sorry) or I will have to pee.
In this case if I have failed to engage my first line of defense, (my
memory), or my second line of defense, (the check mark on the ingredient
list.).. my third line of defense is the lovely red or gray layer
sitting peacefully and majestically (or not), in the dry glaze bucket,
which tells me "yup, I got that far", or "Nope, I didn't". Now I know
you can figure it out by the weight on the scale ,("did I just move the
weight? or did I move the weight AND add the ingredient?") and I know
you can weigh everything to find your place, but let me tell you, the
colorful layer in the middle is n-i-i-i-i-c-e. Other minor 'index
ingredients' are spodumene (kind of sugary), talc (gray), etc......Know
thyself and use them strategically.
4. for obstinate ingredients such as borax, and bentonite, premix them
with warm water or ... put them in a layer near the top and be sure to
dry mix them before adding water. top it off with the lovely colorants
for a colorful, confetti effect.....
5. if you like to live dangerously and add one ingredient to another in
the container right on the scale, use a tall narrow container rather
than a low wide one... that way if you add too much of an ingredient it
will sit aloft in a nice unadulterated peak , so you can swiftly snatch
some of it back., (before looking over your shoulder furtively, to see
if anyone saw you.) Once the silica and frit are intermingled, plucking,
pinching, scooping , swatting , sifting and snatching are fruitless
endeavors.
6. I am sure the other ways of ordering glaze ingredients are morally,
ethically, and intellectually superior, but glazes mixed under my
rigorously researched system seem to turn out OK just the same. I am
being truthful about this though I should not be allowed in a craft fair
booth next to you or anyone else , ever.
Stephani Stephenson
steph@alchemiestudio.com
Janet Kaiser on sat 6 sep 03
All my glaze recipes start with the largest weight / percentage
and finish with the smallest amount, usually oxides UNLESS I was
keeping a record of an experimental series and for comparison
kept the ingredients in the same order, but varied the amounts.
Sincerely
Janet Kaiser - reduced to spewing facts and not opinion... :-(
snorezzzzzzzzzzzz
*** IN REPLY TO THE FOLLOWING MAIL:
>I am wondering is there is an order that the ingredients should
be listed
>in a glaze recipe, specifically for cone 10.
>
>I have never seen a consistent order but was wondering anyone
else has
>come across one or a rational behind an order of ingredients.
(Aside from
>the one used to calculate the UMF which puts the most
complicated
>materials first to assist in satisfying oxide requirements.)
*** THE MAIL FROM John Britt ENDS HERE ***
***********************************************************
The top posted mail was sent by Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art : Capel Celfyddyd
8 Marine Crescent : Criccieth : Wales : UK
Centre of Excellence for The Arts
Home of The International Potters' Path
Tel: ++44 (01766) 523570 http://www.the-coa.org.uk
Open: 13.00 to 17.00hrs : Tuesday to Saturday
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Lily Krakowski on sat 6 sep 03
It is astonishing that no accepted order has been deviced.
I list mine (for me) with Characteristic Giving Ingredients first. That
means a Calcium Borate recipe leads off with the Frit, a Magnesium one with
the Dolomite and so on. Clay and Silica last, as they are sort of basic
like water and coffee with a meal.
Lili Krakowski
Constableville, N.Y.
Be of good courage....
Ron Roy on sun 7 sep 03
I do have an order that I use - I can't remember where it came from - got
to be in one of my pottery related books some where.
I usually list Feldspars first (including Neph Sy, Spodumens, Petalite etc.)
Then the boron materials like frits and GB subs.
Then the double or other multiple oxide compounds like Talc, Dolomite, Bone
Ash, Wollastonite.
Then the Clay
Then to Silica
All the above in the main body of the recipe and totaling 100.
The suspenders, opacifiers, and colourants as % - below.
So you could say complex flux providers first - simpler ones next and
single flux suppliers next - then Clay and Silica to total 100 - and the
modifiers as % after.
The strongest "rule" I would say would be the Clay and Silica last and then
the modifiers added as %.
I think this system evolved over time and certainly was based on some sort
of suggested way of doing it - makes some logical sense to me and when I
see recipes that are not in that order I have a strong urge to put them in
that order when I work on them.
The order is strongly related to the order one needs to use when developing
a glaze recipe from the molecular formula - if you don't do it in that
order you are lost. Get the fuxes in first - then top up the alumina and
silica at the end.
RR
>Hello all,
>
>I am wondering is there is an order that the ingredients should be listed
>in a glaze recipe, specifically for cone 10.
>
>I have never seen a consistent order but was wondering anyone else has
>come across one or a rational behind an order of ingredients. (Aside from
>the one used to calculate the UMF which puts the most complicated
>materials first to assist in satisfying oxide requirements.)
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Phone: 613-475-9544
Fax: 613-475-3513
Des & Jan Howard on sun 7 sep 03
John
Our order (always totals 100)
Potash feldspar
Soda feldspar
Neph sy
Rhyolite
Frits
Silica
Limestone
Dolomite
Talc
Kaolin
+ iron
+ copper
+ cobalt
+ tin
Jan & I discussed why we have always done it this way,
our conclusion, we started with "old faithful" 4:3:2:1 in 1968
& have just continued to note ingredients in that order.
Des
John Britt wrote:
> I am wondering is there is an order that the ingredients should be listed
> in a glaze recipe, specifically for cone 10.
>
> I have never seen a consistent order but was wondering anyone else has
> come across one or a rational behind an order of ingredients. (Aside from
> the one used to calculate the UMF which puts the most complicated
> materials first to assist in satisfying oxide requirements.)
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
LUE NSW 2850
Australia
Ph/Fax 02 6373 6419
http://www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
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