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found footage of peter voulkos (video tape)

updated sat 28 jun 03

 

ridgerunrbunny on sat 21 jun 03


You might want to check with the Voulkos to see if they mind.

Bunny

Ken Stevens, in Larence, KS on sat 21 jun 03


Hi All,

While attending the Kansas City Art Institute, I came across three large
video reels in the dumpster near the ceramics building. At the time, I was
dumpster diving for ceramic heads- the sophomore students had made clay
portraits of themselves for a class assignment. I found a lot of great
heads that year to put in my yard. More importantly, however, I found these
three reels. At the time I thought they were movie reels, but soon with a
bit of research I found out that they were old reel-to-reel VTR (VCR type
tapes) from the 70s. The format and the giant machines for the reels were
out of date by some 20 years (I found the reels in 1995). The reels were
labeled =93Peter Voulkos 1976 demonstration=94 and together last about three=

hours long. They then sat in my basement for eight years, so now the reels
are 27 years old. They may not have been seen for as long as 20 years now!

After the unfortunate death of Peter Volkous, I once again remembered the
reels in my basement and decided for the sake of preserving this historic
event I should try and find a way to restore them. I sent the reels in to
have them professionally saved to a DVD before they become unsalvageable.
To save these reels professionally it will cost me a large chunk of money,
but I think it will be worth it to see what Peter Voulkos was doing in his
heyday.

If anyone else would be interested in a copy, please email me and let me
know. I should get the reels back with the DVD copy some time in the next
two weeks.

Ken

Kfstevens2003@yahoo.com

Roger Korn on sat 21 jun 03


Ken - letus know what you think of the content when you get the DVDs
back. I'm very interested in
this part of Pete's career and your find sounds exciting.

Thanks,
Roger

Ken Stevens, in Larence, KS wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>While attending the Kansas City Art Institute, I came across three large
>video reels in the dumpster near the ceramics building. At the time, I was
>dumpster diving for ceramic heads- the sophomore students had made clay
>portraits of themselves for a class assignment. I found a lot of great
>heads that year to put in my yard. More importantly, however, I found these
>three reels. At the time I thought they were movie reels, but soon with a
>bit of research I found out that they were old reel-to-reel VTR (VCR type
>tapes) from the 70s. The format and the giant machines for the reels were
>out of date by some 20 years (I found the reels in 1995). The reels were
>labeled "Peter Voulkos 1976 demonstration" and together last about three
>hours long. They then sat in my basement for eight years, so now the reels
>are 27 years old. They may not have been seen for as long as 20 years now!
>
>After the unfortunate death of Peter Volkous, I once again remembered the
>reels in my basement and decided for the sake of preserving this historic
>event I should try and find a way to restore them. I sent the reels in to
>have them professionally saved to a DVD before they become unsalvageable.
>To save these reels professionally it will cost me a large chunk of money,
>but I think it will be worth it to see what Peter Voulkos was doing in his
>heyday.
>
> If anyone else would be interested in a copy, please email me and let me
>know. I should get the reels back with the DVD copy some time in the next
>two weeks.
>
>Ken
>
>Kfstevens2003@yahoo.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>

--
Roger Korn
McKay Creek Ceramics
In AZ: PO Box 463
4215 Culpepper Ranch Rd
Rimrock, AZ 86335
928-567-5699 <-
In OR: PO Box 436
31330 NW Pacific Ave.
North Plains, OR 97133
503-647-5464

Vince Pitelka on sun 22 jun 03


> If they mind what? Do you mean they would not want my video reels to be
> saved? It is a good thing that would be my choice. It would be sad to loss
> this historical document for ever.

Ken -
You are certainly to be commended for saving those old reels of videotape.
It could be quite a treasure. But it is also very possible that the footage
had already been transferred to VHS or DVD, and that it is copyrighted. And
whether or not it is copywrighted, either KCAI or the Voulkos family
probably has proprietary rights to that imagery. Before you start handing
out copies (which is extremely generous of you), you probably ought to check
with the Voulkos family and with KCAI.

The most important thing is that you saved the imagery. But people will
bring lawsuits for almost any reason these days, and if you start handing
out copies of this footage (even if you aren't selling them), you could be
facing one.
Best wishes -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/

Ellie Blair on sun 22 jun 03


Hi Ken.
I am also interested in the DVDs of Peter Voulkos. Could you let me know=
what you think after you get the contents back? =20
Thanks
Ellie Blair. Lawrence Kansas
blairea53@msn.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Korn
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 11:51 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)

Ken - letus know what you think of the content when you get the DVDs
back. I'm very interested in
this part of Pete's career and your find sounds exciting.

Thanks,
Roger

Ken Stevens, in Larence, KS wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>While attending the Kansas City Art Institute, I came across three large
>video reels in the dumpster near the ceramics building. At the time, I w=
as
>dumpster diving for ceramic heads- the sophomore students had made clay
>portraits of themselves for a class assignment. I found a lot of great
>heads that year to put in my yard. More importantly, however, I found th=
ese
>three reels. At the time I thought they were movie reels, but soon with =
a
>bit of research I found out that they were old reel-to-reel VTR (VCR typ=
e
>tapes) from the 70s. The format and the giant machines for the reels wer=
e
>out of date by some 20 years (I found the reels in 1995). The reels were
>labeled "Peter Voulkos 1976 demonstration" and together last about three
>hours long. They then sat in my basement for eight years, so now the ree=
ls
>are 27 years old. They may not have been seen for as long as 20 years no=
w!
>
>After the unfortunate death of Peter Volkous, I once again remembered th=
e
>reels in my basement and decided for the sake of preserving this histori=
c
>event I should try and find a way to restore them. I sent the reels in =
to
>have them professionally saved to a DVD before they become unsalvageable=
.
>To save these reels professionally it will cost me a large chunk of mone=
y,
>but I think it will be worth it to see what Peter Voulkos was doing in h=
is
>heyday.
>
> If anyone else would be interested in a copy, please email me and let m=
e
>know. I should get the reels back with the DVD copy some time in the nex=
t
>two weeks.
>
>Ken
>
>Kfstevens2003@yahoo.com
>
>________________________________________________________________________=
______
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pcli=
nk.com.
>
>
>

--
Roger Korn
McKay Creek Ceramics
In AZ: PO Box 463
4215 Culpepper Ranch Rd
Rimrock, AZ 86335
928-567-5699 <-
In OR: PO Box 436
31330 NW Pacific Ave.
North Plains, OR 97133
503-647-5464

_________________________________________________________________________=
_____
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclin=
k.com.

Ken Stevens, in Larence, KS on sun 22 jun 03


Hi Bunny,

If they mind what? Do you mean they would not want my video reels to be
saved? It is a good thing that would be my choice. It would be sad to loss
this historical document for ever.

Ken

kfstevens2003 on sun 22 jun 03


Hi Roger,

Ok I will let you know.

Here is a little bit more information on the video. I did view the
first part of the second reel before the VTR machine stopped working
for good. What I could see on the tape was a room full of hippies
(students in 1976) and Ken Ferguson in the background asking Peter
Voulkos about all kinds of stuff while Peter Voulkos was making his
stacks and platters. Peter Voulkos the whole time was smoking as well
as some of the students. This would not be seen these days. Now the
machine I had used was a black and white only machine. So I don't
know if the footage is in color or not. That's about it until I get
the reels back with the DVD copy. I was told that the reels have to
bake in an oven for about a week or so to get the chim water out.
this water builds up over time. Some other specil steps also need to
be made in order to copy them to a DVD. The old reel to reel stuff
just was not made to last. I would realy like to see this stuff saved.

Ken


--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Roger Korn wrote:
> Ken - letus know what you think of the content when you get the
DVDs
> back. I'm very interested in
> this part of Pete's career and your find sounds exciting.
>
> Thanks,
> Roger
>
> Ken Stevens, in Larence, KS wrote:
>
> >Hi All,
> >
> >While attending the Kansas City Art Institute, I came across three
large
> >video reels in the dumpster near the ceramics building. At the
time, I was
> >dumpster diving for ceramic heads- the sophomore students had made
clay
> >portraits of themselves for a class assignment. I found a lot of
great
> >heads that year to put in my yard. More importantly, however, I
found these
> >three reels. At the time I thought they were movie reels, but soon
with a
> >bit of research I found out that they were old reel-to-reel VTR
(VCR type
> >tapes) from the 70s. The format and the giant machines for the
reels were
> >out of date by some 20 years (I found the reels in 1995). The
reels were
> >labeled "Peter Voulkos 1976 demonstration" and together last about
three
> >hours long. They then sat in my basement for eight years, so now
the reels
> >are 27 years old. They may not have been seen for as long as 20
years now!
> >
> >After the unfortunate death of Peter Volkous, I once again
remembered the
> >reels in my basement and decided for the sake of preserving this
historic
> >event I should try and find a way to restore them. I sent the
reels in to
> >have them professionally saved to a DVD before they become
unsalvageable.
> >To save these reels professionally it will cost me a large chunk
of money,
> >but I think it will be worth it to see what Peter Voulkos was
doing in his
> >heyday.
> >
> > If anyone else would be interested in a copy, please email me and
let me
> >know. I should get the reels back with the DVD copy some time in
the next
> >two weeks.
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >Kfstevens2003@y...
> >
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
_________
> >Send postings to clayart@l...
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@p...
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Roger Korn
> McKay Creek Ceramics
> In AZ: PO Box 463
> 4215 Culpepper Ranch Rd
> Rimrock, AZ 86335
> 928-567-5699 <-
> In OR: PO Box 436
> 31330 NW Pacific Ave.
> North Plains, OR 97133
> 503-647-5464
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@l...
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@p...

Vince Pitelka on tue 24 jun 03


> Lets say thats true... Well they would not get much from me. They
> would have to stand in line, I have a very BIG student loans out from
> the KCAI. I would think they my want to try and get that out of me
> first. I have no property not even a car. I sale my pots for a income
> so they could not garnish my wages. It would just be real stupied for
> some one to sue me. The sue happy people go after big busines not
> poor artist. If they want to try and get blood from a rock I say go
> ahead. By the time they do I wont be distributing the video any more
> any way.

Ken -
All of that is irrelevant. You want to do the right thing, and in this case
the right thing would be to consult with the Voulkos family and KCAI to find
out if it is okay for you to be distributing copies of this video.

Please understand that I think it is wonderful that you saved these
videotapes, and that you are doing the responsible thing in saving them.
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/

kfstevens2003 on tue 24 jun 03


Hi Vince,

Lets say thats true... Well they would not get much from me. They
would have to stand in line, I have a very BIG student loans out from
the KCAI. I would think they my want to try and get that out of me
first. I have no property not even a car. I sale my pots for a income
so they could not garnish my wages. It would just be real stupied for
some one to sue me. The sue happy people go after big busines not
poor artist. If they want to try and get blood from a rock I say go
ahead. By the time they do I wont be distributing the video any more
any way.

Ken


--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> > If they mind what? Do you mean they would not want my video reels
to be
> > saved? It is a good thing that would be my choice. It would be
sad to loss
> > this historical document for ever.
>
> Ken -
> You are certainly to be commended for saving those old reels of
videotape.
> It could be quite a treasure. But it is also very possible that
the footage
> had already been transferred to VHS or DVD, and that it is
copyrighted. And
> whether or not it is copywrighted, either KCAI or the Voulkos family
> probably has proprietary rights to that imagery. Before you start
handing
> out copies (which is extremely generous of you), you probably ought
to check
> with the Voulkos family and with KCAI.
>
> The most important thing is that you saved the imagery. But people
will
> bring lawsuits for almost any reason these days, and if you start
handing
> out copies of this footage (even if you aren't selling them), you
could be
> facing one.
> Best wishes -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> Home - vpitelka@d...
> 615/597-5376
> Office - wpitelka@t...
> 615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@l...
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@p...

pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 24 jun 03


Hey Ken,

...it would seem to me that the tapes are yours...

Nor would I expect anyone to sue you, or to wish to controll
their ownership or reproduction.

I do not think you should worry about any of that.

If anything might be made as for a 'case' it would be from
the company who had the contract for the removal of refuse
or the contents of the dumpsters from the facility whose
dumpster you found the tapes in...or form someone as would
encourage thenm to arrert an interest, as the tapes at that
point technically may be supposed to have belonged to
them...and it is highly unlikely they would have or would
yet have an interest about them in any way as to want to
have them ('back').

Once removed from the dumpster, a burdon of proof or
interest would be incumbent upon them to assert...

It is not like this was say the lost 'Lincoln' diaries or
something someone would want to gain controll over to run
thru' southebys or christys or other...

You should be fine, and you are doing a nice service for
anyone interested to get to have and watch and learn from
these.

My guess...Mr. Volkos would approve.

So would any good sport!

Phil
lasvegas

----- Original Message -----
From: "kfstevens2003"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)


> Hi Vince,
>
> Lets say thats true... Well they would not get much from
me. They
> would have to stand in line, I have a very BIG student
loans out from
> the KCAI. I would think they my want to try and get that
out of me
> first. I have no property not even a car. I sale my pots
for a income
> so they could not garnish my wages. It would just be real
stupied for
> some one to sue me. The sue happy people go after big
busines not
> poor artist. If they want to try and get blood from a rock
I say go
> ahead. By the time they do I wont be distributing the
video any more
> any way.
>
> Ken
>
>
> --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Vince Pitelka
wrote:
> > > If they mind what? Do you mean they would not want my
video reels
> to be
> > > saved? It is a good thing that would be my choice. It
would be
> sad to loss
> > > this historical document for ever.
> >
> > Ken -
> > You are certainly to be commended for saving those old
reels of
> videotape.
> > It could be quite a treasure. But it is also very
possible that
> the footage
> > had already been transferred to VHS or DVD, and that it
is
> copyrighted. And
> > whether or not it is copywrighted, either KCAI or the
Voulkos family
> > probably has proprietary rights to that imagery. Before
you start
> handing
> > out copies (which is extremely generous of you), you
probably ought
> to check
> > with the Voulkos family and with KCAI.
> >
> > The most important thing is that you saved the imagery.
But people
> will
> > bring lawsuits for almost any reason these days, and if
you start
> handing
> > out copies of this footage (even if you aren't selling
them), you
> could be
> > facing one.
> > Best wishes -
> > - Vince
> >
> > Vince Pitelka
> > Appalachian Center for Craft
> > Tennessee Technological University
> > 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> > Home - vpitelka@d...
> > 615/597-5376
> > Office - wpitelka@t...
> > 615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
> > http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________
__________
> ________
> > Send postings to clayart@l...
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at
> melpots@p...
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at melpots@pclink.com.

Dewitt on wed 25 jun 03


At 07:53 PM 6/24/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Hey Ken,
>
>...it would seem to me that the tapes are yours...
>
>Nor would I expect anyone to sue you, or to wish to controll
>their ownership or reproduction.
>
>I do not think you should worry about any of that.

Copyright does not transfer to someone who finds a copy of a work in a
dumpster. Ken owns the video tape he found and can justify making a dvd
for his own use. However, making and distributing copies is another
issue. People on this list have complained when they felt their copyrights
have been violated. Why is this different? It seems only reasonable and
fair to suggest that Ken research any copyright issues associated with
these tapes before going into production. The fact that he is financially
challenged and 'you can't get blood out of a turnip' is a poor excuse for
violating someone's copyright.

deg

Vince Pitelka on wed 25 jun 03


> Trash is "public domain". that has already been in court. If somebody
wants
> evidense against you and finds it in a trash can it is admissable in court
> of law, because it's ok to go through your trash, its like I said "public
> domain".

This conversation is getting pretty wacky. The above implies that Ken now
owns the tapes, but has nothing at all to do with whether it is legal for
him to duplicate and distribute them. It does seem a very simple and
considerate gesture for him to contact the Voulkos family and KCAI and make
sure that no one has a copyright or other binding proprietary interest in
these tapes. What's the big deal here?
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/

kfstevens2003 on wed 25 jun 03


Hi Phil,

Not worried one bit, when I found the tapes I took them back in and
tried to give them to Ken Ferguson and he told me "thoughs old things
are trash! They don't work any more." So you could kind of say he
gave them to me. I asked around the video department and found a
student that had a VTR machine that worked. We could only play a
small part of the second reel before the heads got cloges on the VTR
unit. You can see Ken Ferguson in the back groud. Also Kert Wiser can
be seen too. He is still teaching at the KCAI. It could be true that
the reels were transfred before I found them but I dont care. I have
them too.

Ken

--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, pdp1@E... wrote:
> Hey Ken,
>
> ...it would seem to me that the tapes are yours...
>
> Nor would I expect anyone to sue you, or to wish to controll
> their ownership or reproduction.
>
> I do not think you should worry about any of that.
>
> If anything might be made as for a 'case' it would be from
> the company who had the contract for the removal of refuse
> or the contents of the dumpsters from the facility whose
> dumpster you found the tapes in...or form someone as would
> encourage thenm to arrert an interest, as the tapes at that
> point technically may be supposed to have belonged to
> them...and it is highly unlikely they would have or would
> yet have an interest about them in any way as to want to
> have them ('back').
>
> Once removed from the dumpster, a burdon of proof or
> interest would be incumbent upon them to assert...
>
> It is not like this was say the lost 'Lincoln' diaries or
> something someone would want to gain controll over to run
> thru' southebys or christys or other...
>
> You should be fine, and you are doing a nice service for
> anyone interested to get to have and watch and learn from
> these.
>
> My guess...Mr. Volkos would approve.
>
> So would any good sport!
>
> Phil
> lasvegas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kfstevens2003"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)
>
>
> > Hi Vince,
> >
> > Lets say thats true... Well they would not get much from
> me. They
> > would have to stand in line, I have a very BIG student
> loans out from
> > the KCAI. I would think they my want to try and get that
> out of me
> > first. I have no property not even a car. I sale my pots
> for a income
> > so they could not garnish my wages. It would just be real
> stupied for
> > some one to sue me. The sue happy people go after big
> busines not
> > poor artist. If they want to try and get blood from a rock
> I say go
> > ahead. By the time they do I wont be distributing the
> video any more
> > any way.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Vince Pitelka
> wrote:
> > > > If they mind what? Do you mean they would not want my
> video reels
> > to be
> > > > saved? It is a good thing that would be my choice. It
> would be
> > sad to loss
> > > > this historical document for ever.
> > >
> > > Ken -
> > > You are certainly to be commended for saving those old
> reels of
> > videotape.
> > > It could be quite a treasure. But it is also very
> possible that
> > the footage
> > > had already been transferred to VHS or DVD, and that it
> is
> > copyrighted. And
> > > whether or not it is copywrighted, either KCAI or the
> Voulkos family
> > > probably has proprietary rights to that imagery. Before
> you start
> > handing
> > > out copies (which is extremely generous of you), you
> probably ought
> > to check
> > > with the Voulkos family and with KCAI.
> > >
> > > The most important thing is that you saved the imagery.
> But people
> > will
> > > bring lawsuits for almost any reason these days, and if
> you start
> > handing
> > > out copies of this footage (even if you aren't selling
> them), you
> > could be
> > > facing one.
> > > Best wishes -
> > > - Vince
> > >
> > > Vince Pitelka
> > > Appalachian Center for Craft
> > > Tennessee Technological University
> > > 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> > > Home - vpitelka@d...
> > > 615/597-5376
> > > Office - wpitelka@t...
> > > 615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
> > > http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
> > >
> > >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> __________
> > ________
> > > Send postings to clayart@l...
> > >
> > > You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> > subscription
> > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > >
> > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
> at
> > melpots@p...
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> __________________
> > Send postings to clayart@l...
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
> at melpots@p...
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@l...
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@p...

Burness Speakman on wed 25 jun 03


Trash is "public domain". that has already been in court. If somebody wants
evidense against you and finds it in a trash can it is admissable in court
of law, because it's ok to go through your trash, its like I said "public
domain".

Roger Korn on wed 25 jun 03


Hi Phil,

My take exactly. And the case could be made that the refuse removal
contractor's interest lay in there being les trash to remove, so
ownership of the trash would be subordinate. And since distribution is
not-for-profit, it'd be hard to assert monetary damages.

But I'm not a lawyer, so don't shoot me,

Roger

pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:

>Hey Ken,
>
>...it would seem to me that the tapes are yours...
>
>Nor would I expect anyone to sue you, or to wish to controll
>their ownership or reproduction.
>
>I do not think you should worry about any of that.
>
>If anything might be made as for a 'case' it would be from
>the company who had the contract for the removal of refuse
>or the contents of the dumpsters from the facility whose
>dumpster you found the tapes in...or form someone as would
>encourage thenm to arrert an interest, as the tapes at that
>point technically may be supposed to have belonged to
>them...and it is highly unlikely they would have or would
>yet have an interest about them in any way as to want to
>have them ('back').
>
>Once removed from the dumpster, a burdon of proof or
>interest would be incumbent upon them to assert...
>
>It is not like this was say the lost 'Lincoln' diaries or
>something someone would want to gain controll over to run
>thru' southebys or christys or other...
>
>You should be fine, and you are doing a nice service for
>anyone interested to get to have and watch and learn from
>these.
>
>My guess...Mr. Volkos would approve.
>
>So would any good sport!
>
>Phil
>lasvegas
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "kfstevens2003"
>To:
>Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 4:04 PM
>Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)
>
>
>
>
>>Hi Vince,
>>
>>Lets say thats true... Well they would not get much from
>>
>>
>me. They
>
>
>>would have to stand in line, I have a very BIG student
>>
>>
>loans out from
>
>
>>the KCAI. I would think they my want to try and get that
>>
>>
>out of me
>
>
>>first. I have no property not even a car. I sale my pots
>>
>>
>for a income
>
>
>>so they could not garnish my wages. It would just be real
>>
>>
>stupied for
>
>
>>some one to sue me. The sue happy people go after big
>>
>>
>busines not
>
>
>>poor artist. If they want to try and get blood from a rock
>>
>>
>I say go
>
>
>>ahead. By the time they do I wont be distributing the
>>
>>
>video any more
>
>
>>any way.
>>
>>Ken
>>
>>
>>--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Vince Pitelka
>>
>>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>>If they mind what? Do you mean they would not want my
>>>>
>>>>
>video reels
>
>
>>to be
>>
>>
>>>>saved? It is a good thing that would be my choice. It
>>>>
>>>>
>would be
>
>
>>sad to loss
>>
>>
>>>>this historical document for ever.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Ken -
>>>You are certainly to be commended for saving those old
>>>
>>>
>reels of
>
>
>>videotape.
>>
>>
>>>It could be quite a treasure. But it is also very
>>>
>>>
>possible that
>
>
>>the footage
>>
>>
>>>had already been transferred to VHS or DVD, and that it
>>>
>>>
>is
>
>
>>copyrighted. And
>>
>>
>>>whether or not it is copywrighted, either KCAI or the
>>>
>>>
>Voulkos family
>
>
>>>probably has proprietary rights to that imagery. Before
>>>
>>>
>you start
>
>
>>handing
>>
>>
>>>out copies (which is extremely generous of you), you
>>>
>>>
>probably ought
>
>
>>to check
>>
>>
>>>with the Voulkos family and with KCAI.
>>>
>>>The most important thing is that you saved the imagery.
>>>
>>>
>But people
>
>
>>will
>>
>>
>>>bring lawsuits for almost any reason these days, and if
>>>
>>>
>you start
>
>
>>handing
>>
>>
>>>out copies of this footage (even if you aren't selling
>>>
>>>
>them), you
>
>
>>could be
>>
>>
>>>facing one.
>>>Best wishes -
>>>- Vince
>>>
>>>Vince Pitelka
>>>Appalachian Center for Craft
>>>Tennessee Technological University
>>>1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
>>>Home - vpitelka@d...
>>>615/597-5376
>>>Office - wpitelka@t...
>>>615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
>>>http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>____________________________________________________________
>__________
>
>
>>________
>>
>>
>>>Send postings to clayart@l...
>>>
>>>You may look at the archives for the list or change your
>>>
>>>
>>subscription
>>
>>
>>>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>>
>>>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
>>>
>>>
>at
>
>
>>melpots@p...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>____________________________________________________________
>__________________
>
>
>>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>>You may look at the archives for the list or change your
>>
>>
>subscription
>
>
>>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
>>
>>
>at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>

--
Roger Korn
McKay Creek Ceramics
In AZ: PO Box 463
4215 Culpepper Ranch Rd
Rimrock, AZ 86335
928-567-5699 <-
In OR: PO Box 436
31330 NW Pacific Ave.
North Plains, OR 97133
503-647-5464

pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 25 jun 03


Hi Ken,

Cool!

You done the courteous thing there...

You could try calling the Volkos estate just to get their
blessings on it if they were so disposed, as a small point
of manners in that way...and I would be very surprised if
they were not disposed to give their blesssings...

Nothing else TO do otherwise I wouldn't think, but as you
are doing.

Best of luck in your doing this...they would be fun to see!

Phil
lasvegas

----- Original Message -----
From: "kfstevens2003"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)


> Hi Phil,
>
> Not worried one bit, when I found the tapes I took them
back in and
> tried to give them to Ken Ferguson and he told me "thoughs
old things
> are trash! They don't work any more." So you could kind of
say he
> gave them to me. I asked around the video department and
found a
> student that had a VTR machine that worked. We could only
play a
> small part of the second reel before the heads got cloges
on the VTR
> unit. You can see Ken Ferguson in the back groud. Also
Kert Wiser can
> be seen too. He is still teaching at the KCAI. It could be
true that
> the reels were transfred before I found them but I dont
care. I have
> them too.
>
> Ken
>
> --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, pdp1@E... wrote:
> > Hey Ken,
> >
> > ...it would seem to me that the tapes are yours...
> >
> > Nor would I expect anyone to sue you, or to wish to
controll
> > their ownership or reproduction.
> >
> > I do not think you should worry about any of that.
> >
> > If anything might be made as for a 'case' it would be
from
> > the company who had the contract for the removal of
refuse
> > or the contents of the dumpsters from the facility
whose
> > dumpster you found the tapes in...or form someone as
would
> > encourage thenm to arrert an interest, as the tapes at
that
> > point technically may be supposed to have belonged to
> > them...and it is highly unlikely they would have or
would
> > yet have an interest about them in any way as to want to
> > have them ('back').
> >
> > Once removed from the dumpster, a burdon of proof or
> > interest would be incumbent upon them to assert...
> >
> > It is not like this was say the lost 'Lincoln' diaries
or
> > something someone would want to gain controll over to
run
> > thru' southebys or christys or other...
> >
> > You should be fine, and you are doing a nice service for
> > anyone interested to get to have and watch and learn
from
> > these.
> >
> > My guess...Mr. Volkos would approve.
> >
> > So would any good sport!
> >
> > Phil
> > lasvegas
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "kfstevens2003"
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 4:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)
> >
> >
> > > Hi Vince,
> > >
> > > Lets say thats true... Well they would not get much
from
> > me. They
> > > would have to stand in line, I have a very BIG student
> > loans out from
> > > the KCAI. I would think they my want to try and get
that
> > out of me
> > > first. I have no property not even a car. I sale my
pots
> > for a income
> > > so they could not garnish my wages. It would just be
real
> > stupied for
> > > some one to sue me. The sue happy people go after big
> > busines not
> > > poor artist. If they want to try and get blood from a
rock
> > I say go
> > > ahead. By the time they do I wont be distributing the
> > video any more
> > > any way.
> > >
> > > Ken
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Vince Pitelka
> > wrote:
> > > > > If they mind what? Do you mean they would not want
my
> > video reels
> > > to be
> > > > > saved? It is a good thing that would be my choice.
It
> > would be
> > > sad to loss
> > > > > this historical document for ever.
> > > >
> > > > Ken -
> > > > You are certainly to be commended for saving those
old
> > reels of
> > > videotape.
> > > > It could be quite a treasure. But it is also very
> > possible that
> > > the footage
> > > > had already been transferred to VHS or DVD, and that
it
> > is
> > > copyrighted. And
> > > > whether or not it is copywrighted, either KCAI or
the
> > Voulkos family
> > > > probably has proprietary rights to that imagery.
Before
> > you start
> > > handing
> > > > out copies (which is extremely generous of you), you
> > probably ought
> > > to check
> > > > with the Voulkos family and with KCAI.
> > > >
> > > > The most important thing is that you saved the
imagery.
> > But people
> > > will
> > > > bring lawsuits for almost any reason these days, and
if
> > you start
> > > handing
> > > > out copies of this footage (even if you aren't
selling
> > them), you
> > > could be
> > > > facing one.
> > > > Best wishes -
> > > > - Vince
> > > >
> > > > Vince Pitelka
> > > > Appalachian Center for Craft
> > > > Tennessee Technological University
> > > > 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> > > > Home - vpitelka@d...
> > > > 615/597-5376
> > > > Office - wpitelka@t...
> > > > 615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
> > > > http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
____________________________________________________________
> > __________
> > > ________
> > > > Send postings to clayart@l...
> > > >
> > > > You may look at the archives for the list or change
your
> > > subscription
> > > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > > >
> > > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
reached
> > at
> > > melpots@p...
> > >
> > >
> >
____________________________________________________________
> > __________________
> > > Send postings to clayart@l...
> > >
> > > You may look at the archives for the list or change
your
> > subscription
> > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > >
> > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
reached
> > at melpots@p...
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________
__________
> ________
> > Send postings to clayart@l...
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at
> melpots@p...
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at melpots@pclink.com.

pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 25 jun 03


Hey deg,

Hmmmmmm..good point!

And...

As more-or-less extempore of 'tapes', made in a
school...about which no one later cared, or could have cared
as IF it say were a Novel they'd written, or some 'work' as
was an involved or creatuve matter to do...

...if there was a Copyright?...and I doubt there would have
been...and, so, if there was not, then, may not Ken
copyright them now, if he so likes? Or do so as the 'Ken
Archival Video and Film Salvage and Distribution Company' or
whatever?

For that matter?

Not that he 'should', but while we're on the topic? Just for
sake of argument to clearify the subject?

I agree that Copyright should be respected, certainly, and I
also believe in the notion of 'Public Domain' when something
'reasonably' IS Public Domain...

Now as well, 'Trade Marks' can lay dead-as-a-doornail for a
century, and still be 'owned' by someone, somewhere, and
they may very well not be replicated or appropriated
commercially with impunity...which is fine with me...



Here's one to try for an experiment just to see how 'far'
you'd get...a curious exemplar...

Try reproduceing even a broad 'parody' of the Painting
'American Gothic', and see how quick them old sisters have
their Lawyers knockin' on your door!


Phil
lasvegas


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewitt"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)


> At 07:53 PM 6/24/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >Hey Ken,
> >
> >...it would seem to me that the tapes are yours...
> >
> >Nor would I expect anyone to sue you, or to wish to
controll
> >their ownership or reproduction.
> >
> >I do not think you should worry about any of that.
>
> Copyright does not transfer to someone who finds a copy of
a work in a
> dumpster. Ken owns the video tape he found and can
justify making a dvd
> for his own use. However, making and distributing copies
is another
> issue. People on this list have complained when they felt
their copyrights
> have been violated. Why is this different? It seems only
reasonable and
> fair to suggest that Ken research any copyright issues
associated with
> these tapes before going into production. The fact that
he is financially
> challenged and 'you can't get blood out of a turnip' is a
poor excuse for
> violating someone's copyright.
>
> deg
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at melpots@pclink.com.

Snail Scott on wed 25 jun 03


At 08:17 AM 6/25/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Trash is "public domain". that has already been in court.


Trash is free for the picking, true, but if
I throw out my copy of Hamer & Hamer someday,
you don't get to retrieve it, duplicate it
and sell copies. Those prints are Ken's, just as
my copy of Hamer would be yours, but reproduction
for distribution is a whole 'nother issue. Ken
may or may not have the rights to these films,
but being in the trash is unlikely to affect the
copyright of a reproducible medium. I don't
know the copyright status of these films, but
the 'thrown away' status of them is surely
irrelevant.

-Snail

kfstevens2003 on thu 26 jun 03


Hi Snail,

There is no copywrite on this video. You are more than welcome to do
a search for your self. I am looking at getting a copywrite myself
because there are some real good images that could be taken from this
film. Here is all I coud find for that time period.


---------------------------------------------------
Registered Works Database (Title Search)

Search For: PETER VOULKOS, A DIALOGUE WITH CLAY
Item 1 of 1
-------------------------------------------------------------
1. Registration Number: TX-193-032
Title: Peter Voulkos, a dialogue with clay / Rose Slivka.
Edition: 1st ed.
Imprint: [s.l.] : New York Graphic Society, c1978.
Description: 142 p.ISBN: ISBN 0-8212-0712-1.
Claimant: acRose Slivka
Created: 1977

Published: 3Mar78

Registered: 9Jan79

Special Codes: 1/B/L//A
----------------------------------------
Why dont you come up with something first before being an ass.

Ken

--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Snail Scott wrote:
> At 08:17 AM 6/25/03 -0400, you wrote:
> >Trash is "public domain". that has already been in court.
>
>
> Trash is free for the picking, true, but if
> I throw out my copy of Hamer & Hamer someday,
> you don't get to retrieve it, duplicate it
> and sell copies. Those prints are Ken's, just as
> my copy of Hamer would be yours, but reproduction
> for distribution is a whole 'nother issue. Ken
> may or may not have the rights to these films,
> but being in the trash is unlikely to affect the
> copyright of a reproducible medium. I don't
> know the copyright status of these films, but
> the 'thrown away' status of them is surely
> irrelevant.
>
> -Snail
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@l...
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@p...

kfstevens2003 on thu 26 jun 03


Phil,

I plan on sending the Voulkos family a copy of the video once I get
some copies made. I am also going to take on too Ken Fergeson's when
I get a chance. I planed on making some phone calls once I have the
video back in my hands and get a chance to see it for my self. I
realy did not want to make such a big deal out of this. How ever I am
glad I gave you all something to talk about.

Ken

--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, pdp1@E... wrote:
> Hi Ken,
>
> Cool!
>
> You done the courteous thing there...
>
> You could try calling the Volkos estate just to get their
> blessings on it if they were so disposed, as a small point
> of manners in that way...and I would be very surprised if
> they were not disposed to give their blesssings...
>
> Nothing else TO do otherwise I wouldn't think, but as you
> are doing.
>
> Best of luck in your doing this...they would be fun to see!
>
> Phil
> lasvegas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kfstevens2003"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)
>
>
> > Hi Phil,
> >
> > Not worried one bit, when I found the tapes I took them
> back in and
> > tried to give them to Ken Ferguson and he told me "thoughs
> old things
> > are trash! They don't work any more." So you could kind of
> say he
> > gave them to me. I asked around the video department and
> found a
> > student that had a VTR machine that worked. We could only
> play a
> > small part of the second reel before the heads got cloges
> on the VTR
> > unit. You can see Ken Ferguson in the back groud. Also
> Kert Wiser can
> > be seen too. He is still teaching at the KCAI. It could be
> true that
> > the reels were transfred before I found them but I dont
> care. I have
> > them too.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, pdp1@E... wrote:
> > > Hey Ken,
> > >
> > > ...it would seem to me that the tapes are yours...
> > >
> > > Nor would I expect anyone to sue you, or to wish to
> controll
> > > their ownership or reproduction.
> > >
> > > I do not think you should worry about any of that.
> > >
> > > If anything might be made as for a 'case' it would be
> from
> > > the company who had the contract for the removal of
> refuse
> > > or the contents of the dumpsters from the facility
> whose
> > > dumpster you found the tapes in...or form someone as
> would
> > > encourage thenm to arrert an interest, as the tapes at
> that
> > > point technically may be supposed to have belonged to
> > > them...and it is highly unlikely they would have or
> would
> > > yet have an interest about them in any way as to want to
> > > have them ('back').
> > >
> > > Once removed from the dumpster, a burdon of proof or
> > > interest would be incumbent upon them to assert...
> > >
> > > It is not like this was say the lost 'Lincoln' diaries
> or
> > > something someone would want to gain controll over to
> run
> > > thru' southebys or christys or other...
> > >
> > > You should be fine, and you are doing a nice service for
> > > anyone interested to get to have and watch and learn
> from
> > > these.
> > >
> > > My guess...Mr. Volkos would approve.
> > >
> > > So would any good sport!
> > >
> > > Phil
> > > lasvegas
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "kfstevens2003"
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 4:04 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Vince,
> > > >
> > > > Lets say thats true... Well they would not get much
> from
> > > me. They
> > > > would have to stand in line, I have a very BIG student
> > > loans out from
> > > > the KCAI. I would think they my want to try and get
> that
> > > out of me
> > > > first. I have no property not even a car. I sale my
> pots
> > > for a income
> > > > so they could not garnish my wages. It would just be
> real
> > > stupied for
> > > > some one to sue me. The sue happy people go after big
> > > busines not
> > > > poor artist. If they want to try and get blood from a
> rock
> > > I say go
> > > > ahead. By the time they do I wont be distributing the
> > > video any more
> > > > any way.
> > > >
> > > > Ken
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Vince Pitelka
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > If they mind what? Do you mean they would not want
> my
> > > video reels
> > > > to be
> > > > > > saved? It is a good thing that would be my choice.
> It
> > > would be
> > > > sad to loss
> > > > > > this historical document for ever.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken -
> > > > > You are certainly to be commended for saving those
> old
> > > reels of
> > > > videotape.
> > > > > It could be quite a treasure. But it is also very
> > > possible that
> > > > the footage
> > > > > had already been transferred to VHS or DVD, and that
> it
> > > is
> > > > copyrighted. And
> > > > > whether or not it is copywrighted, either KCAI or
> the
> > > Voulkos family
> > > > > probably has proprietary rights to that imagery.
> Before
> > > you start
> > > > handing
> > > > > out copies (which is extremely generous of you), you
> > > probably ought
> > > > to check
> > > > > with the Voulkos family and with KCAI.
> > > > >
> > > > > The most important thing is that you saved the
> imagery.
> > > But people
> > > > will
> > > > > bring lawsuits for almost any reason these days, and
> if
> > > you start
> > > > handing
> > > > > out copies of this footage (even if you aren't
> selling
> > > them), you
> > > > could be
> > > > > facing one.
> > > > > Best wishes -
> > > > > - Vince
> > > > >
> > > > > Vince Pitelka
> > > > > Appalachian Center for Craft
> > > > > Tennessee Technological University
> > > > > 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> > > > > Home - vpitelka@d...
> > > > > 615/597-5376
> > > > > Office - wpitelka@t...
> > > > > 615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
> > > > > http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> ____________________________________________________________
> > > __________
> > > > ________
> > > > > Send postings to clayart@l...
> > > > >
> > > > > You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your
> > > > subscription
> > > > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > > > >
> > > > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached
> > > at
> > > > melpots@p...
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> ____________________________________________________________
> > > __________________
> > > > Send postings to clayart@l...
> > > >
> > > > You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your
> > > subscription
> > > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > > >
> > > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached
> > > at melpots@p...
> > >
> > >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> __________
> > ________
> > > Send postings to clayart@l...
> > >
> > > You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> > subscription
> > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > >
> > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
> at
> > melpots@p...
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
> __________________
> > Send postings to clayart@l...
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
> at melpots@p...
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
________
> Send postings to clayart@l...
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@p...

Dewitt on thu 26 jun 03


At 02:13 AM 6/26/2003 +0000, kfstevens2003 wrote:
>Hi Snail,
>
>There is no copywrite on this video. You are more than welcome to do
>a search for your self. I am looking at getting a copywrite myself
>because there are some real good images that could be taken from this
>film. Here is all I coud find for that time period.

Ken, Ken, Ken, . . . be cautious about throwing out insulting terms=20
before you have a better understanding of copyright law. You might find=20
the page at http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/copyright.html useful in=20
educating yourself. As you can see from the snippet below, registration is=
=20
not required.

"A copyright gives the owner the exclusive right to reproduce, distribute,=
=20
perform, display, or license his work. See=20
=A7 106 of the act. The=20
owner also receives the exclusive right to produce or license derivatives=20
of his or her work. See=20
=A7 201(d) of the=20
act. Limited exceptions to this exclusivity exist for types of "fair use",=
=20
such as book reviews. See=20
=A7 107 of the act. To be=
=20
covered by copyright a work must be original and in a concrete "medium of=20
expression." See =A7 102 of=
=20
the act. Under current law, works are covered whether or not a copyright=20
notice is attached and whether or not the work is registered. "

The author of a work is the default copyright holder unless he has assigned=
=20
ownership to someone else.
And it's not strictly a copyright issue. The Vouklos family may claim=20
rights to the use of his image. I'm rather confident that if you found a=20
lost Elvis tape in a dumpster and went into production, that his heirs=20
would shut you down in a New York second.

Whether or not you care to acknowledge it, the right thing to do is to=20
contact the Voulkos family and the university, and obtain their permission=
=20
before distributing the recording.

deg =20

Lori Leary on thu 26 jun 03


I think all of this disscussion has to do with doing the honorable
thing. I really have no concern about the possibility of you being sued,
not a bit. (Although some Clayarters were acting out of concern for
your well-being in response to your original post and I'm sure they will
think twice before doing that again!) What I consider important is
this: Doing what is right. I for one would not take easily to having
"found" images of a family member being copied and distributed, perhaps
to be copyrighted by the "finder" for future profit.

Gail Dapogny's husband was in a similar situation when he restored a
long lost jazz opera from the 1930s. (Gail-hope you don't mind me
bringing this up..maybe you could step in here...) He made sure he had
the permission of the composer's descendents before proceeding.

It's great to restore the tapes, but there are ways to have this done
ethically. Adding to the current body of knowledge of Voulkos and his
work is a fine thing and could have ramifications far beyond just having
a tape (I am not going to say "pirated" here) for the personal
enjoyment of a select few.

By the way, calling Snail an ass is rude, yes...but I guess sometimes we
have to overlook poor manners.

Lori L.
lleary@epix.net
Mountain Top, PA



kfstevens2003 wrote:
> Hi Snail,
>
> There is no copywrite on this video. You are more than welcome to do
> a search for your self. I am looking at getting a copywrite myself
> because there are some real good images that could be taken from this
> film. Here is all I coud find for that time period.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Registered Works Database (Title Search)
>
> Search For: PETER VOULKOS, A DIALOGUE WITH CLAY
> Item 1 of 1
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 1. Registration Number: TX-193-032
> Title: Peter Voulkos, a dialogue with clay / Rose Slivka.
> Edition: 1st ed.
> Imprint: [s.l.] : New York Graphic Society, c1978.
> Description: 142 p.ISBN: ISBN 0-8212-0712-1.
> Claimant: acRose Slivka
> Created: 1977
>
> Published: 3Mar78
>
> Registered: 9Jan79
>
> Special Codes: 1/B/L//A
> ----------------------------------------
> Why dont you come up with something first before being an ass.
>
> Ken

Gail Phillips on thu 26 jun 03


Ken -

No good deed goes unpunished.....

- Gail P.

Snail Scott on thu 26 jun 03


At 02:13 AM 6/26/03 -0000, you wrote:
>Hi Snail...
>Why dont you come up with something first before being an ass.
>
>Ken


HUH????
I was on YOUR side, you doofus! I'm sure you
are fully capable of exploring the proper and
legal use of this footage. All I said was that
the presence of something in a dumpster is no
indication of copyright status. (And neither
is a lack of official registration.)


-Snail

pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on thu 26 jun 03


Greetings deg,

Nice forays...good to think about...!

And...

Who then do we suppose to have been the 'author' of the
'work' in this case?

The student, teacher's aide or other camera operative?

And how does that implicitly defer to the University or
Volkos estate, if it does, and maybe it does not, too?

Nor does the personage as may be regarded as an actual or
incidental content of the work per-se, obtain implicit
authorship simply because they are 'in' it, I should not
think...do they?

Or...?

Phil
las vegas


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewitt"
To:
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)


At 02:13 AM 6/26/2003 +0000, kfstevens2003 wrote:
>Hi Snail,
>
>There is no copywrite on this video. You are more than
welcome to do
>a search for your self. I am looking at getting a copywrite
myself
>because there are some real good images that could be taken
from this
>film. Here is all I coud find for that time period.

Ken, Ken, Ken, . . . be cautious about throwing out
insulting terms
before you have a better understanding of copyright law.
You might find
the page at http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/copyright.html
useful in
educating yourself. As you can see from the snippet below,
registration is
not required.

"A copyright gives the owner the exclusive right to
reproduce, distribute,
perform, display, or license his work. See
106 of
the act. The
owner also receives the exclusive right to produce or
license derivatives
of his or her work. See

201(d) of the
act. Limited exceptions to this exclusivity exist for types
of "fair use",
such as book reviews. See
107 of
the act. To be
covered by copyright a work must be original and in a
concrete "medium of
expression." See
102 of
the act. Under current law, works are covered whether or not
a copyright
notice is attached and whether or not the work is
registered. "

The author of a work is the default copyright holder unless
he has assigned
ownership to someone else.
And it's not strictly a copyright issue. The Vouklos family
may claim
rights to the use of his image. I'm rather confident that
if you found a
lost Elvis tape in a dumpster and went into production, that
his heirs
would shut you down in a New York second.

Whether or not you care to acknowledge it, the right thing
to do is to
contact the Voulkos family and the university, and obtain
their permission
before distributing the recording.

deg

____________________________________________________________
__________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on thu 26 jun 03


Well...it's mostly the spin-offs of issues that are getting
so much play...

Paranoia energies and territorial nervousness where sense or
simplicity might otherwise animate.

Our world is SO 'crowded' anymore...

Best!

Phil
lasvegas

----- Original Message -----
From: "kfstevens2003"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)


> Phil,
>
> I plan on sending the Voulkos family a copy of the video
once I get
> some copies made. I am also going to take on too Ken
Fergeson's when
> I get a chance. I planed on making some phone calls once I
have the
> video back in my hands and get a chance to see it for my
self. I
> realy did not want to make such a big deal out of this.
How ever I am
> glad I gave you all something to talk about.
>
> Ken
>
> --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, pdp1@E... wrote:
> > Hi Ken,
> >
> > Cool!
> >
> > You done the courteous thing there...
> >
> > You could try calling the Volkos estate just to get
their
> > blessings on it if they were so disposed, as a small
point
> > of manners in that way...and I would be very surprised
if
> > they were not disposed to give their blesssings...
> >
> > Nothing else TO do otherwise I wouldn't think, but as
you
> > are doing.
> >
> > Best of luck in your doing this...they would be fun to
see!
> >
> > Phil
> > lasvegas
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "kfstevens2003"
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 9:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)
> >
> >
> > > Hi Phil,
> > >
> > > Not worried one bit, when I found the tapes I took
them
> > back in and
> > > tried to give them to Ken Ferguson and he told me
"thoughs
> > old things
> > > are trash! They don't work any more." So you could
kind of
> > say he
> > > gave them to me. I asked around the video department
and
> > found a
> > > student that had a VTR machine that worked. We could
only
> > play a
> > > small part of the second reel before the heads got
cloges
> > on the VTR
> > > unit. You can see Ken Ferguson in the back groud. Also
> > Kert Wiser can
> > > be seen too. He is still teaching at the KCAI. It
could be
> > true that
> > > the reels were transfred before I found them but I
dont
> > care. I have
> > > them too.
> > >
> > > Ken
> > >
> > > --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, pdp1@E... wrote:
> > > > Hey Ken,
> > > >
> > > > ...it would seem to me that the tapes are yours...
> > > >
> > > > Nor would I expect anyone to sue you, or to wish to
> > controll
> > > > their ownership or reproduction.
> > > >
> > > > I do not think you should worry about any of that.
> > > >
> > > > If anything might be made as for a 'case' it would
be
> > from
> > > > the company who had the contract for the removal of
> > refuse
> > > > or the contents of the dumpsters from the facility
> > whose
> > > > dumpster you found the tapes in...or form someone as
> > would
> > > > encourage thenm to arrert an interest, as the tapes
at
> > that
> > > > point technically may be supposed to have belonged
to
> > > > them...and it is highly unlikely they would have or
> > would
> > > > yet have an interest about them in any way as to
want to
> > > > have them ('back').
> > > >
> > > > Once removed from the dumpster, a burdon of proof or
> > > > interest would be incumbent upon them to assert...
> > > >
> > > > It is not like this was say the lost 'Lincoln'
diaries
> > or
> > > > something someone would want to gain controll over
to
> > run
> > > > thru' southebys or christys or other...
> > > >
> > > > You should be fine, and you are doing a nice service
for
> > > > anyone interested to get to have and watch and learn
> > from
> > > > these.
> > > >
> > > > My guess...Mr. Volkos would approve.
> > > >
> > > > So would any good sport!
> > > >
> > > > Phil
> > > > lasvegas
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "kfstevens2003"
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 4:04 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video
tape)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Vince,
> > > > >
> > > > > Lets say thats true... Well they would not get
much
> > from
> > > > me. They
> > > > > would have to stand in line, I have a very BIG
student
> > > > loans out from
> > > > > the KCAI. I would think they my want to try and
get
> > that
> > > > out of me
> > > > > first. I have no property not even a car. I sale
my
> > pots
> > > > for a income
> > > > > so they could not garnish my wages. It would just
be
> > real
> > > > stupied for
> > > > > some one to sue me. The sue happy people go after
big
> > > > busines not
> > > > > poor artist. If they want to try and get blood
from a
> > rock
> > > > I say go
> > > > > ahead. By the time they do I wont be distributing
the
> > > > video any more
> > > > > any way.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Vince Pitelka
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > If they mind what? Do you mean they would not
want
> > my
> > > > video reels
> > > > > to be
> > > > > > > saved? It is a good thing that would be my
choice.
> > It
> > > > would be
> > > > > sad to loss
> > > > > > > this historical document for ever.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ken -
> > > > > > You are certainly to be commended for saving
those
> > old
> > > > reels of
> > > > > videotape.
> > > > > > It could be quite a treasure. But it is also
very
> > > > possible that
> > > > > the footage
> > > > > > had already been transferred to VHS or DVD, and
that
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > > copyrighted. And
> > > > > > whether or not it is copywrighted, either KCAI
or
> > the
> > > > Voulkos family
> > > > > > probably has proprietary rights to that imagery.
> > Before
> > > > you start
> > > > > handing
> > > > > > out copies (which is extremely generous of you),
you
> > > > probably ought
> > > > > to check
> > > > > > with the Voulkos family and with KCAI.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The most important thing is that you saved the
> > imagery.
> > > > But people
> > > > > will
> > > > > > bring lawsuits for almost any reason these days,
and
> > if
> > > > you start
> > > > > handing
> > > > > > out copies of this footage (even if you aren't
> > selling
> > > > them), you
> > > > > could be
> > > > > > facing one.
> > > > > > Best wishes -
> > > > > > - Vince
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vince Pitelka
> > > > > > Appalachian Center for Craft
> > > > > > Tennessee Technological University
> > > > > > 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> > > > > > Home - vpitelka@d...
> > > > > > 615/597-5376
> > > > > > Office - wpitelka@t...
> > > > > > 615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
> > > > > > http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
____________________________________________________________
> > > > __________
> > > > > ________
> > > > > > Send postings to clayart@l...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You may look at the archives for the list or
change
> > your
> > > > > subscription
> > > > > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> > reached
> > > > at
> > > > > melpots@p...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
____________________________________________________________
> > > > __________________
> > > > > Send postings to clayart@l...
> > > > >
> > > > > You may look at the archives for the list or
change
> > your
> > > > subscription
> > > > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > > > >
> > > > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> > reached
> > > > at melpots@p...
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
____________________________________________________________
> > __________
> > > ________
> > > > Send postings to clayart@l...
> > > >
> > > > You may look at the archives for the list or change
your
> > > subscription
> > > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > > >
> > > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
reached
> > at
> > > melpots@p...
> > >
> > >
> >
____________________________________________________________
> > __________________
> > > Send postings to clayart@l...
> > >
> > > You may look at the archives for the list or change
your
> > subscription
> > > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > >
> > > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
reached
> > at melpots@p...
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________
__________
> ________
> > Send postings to clayart@l...
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at
> melpots@p...
>
>
____________________________________________________________
__________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached
at melpots@pclink.com.

Dewitt on thu 26 jun 03


At 11:40 AM 6/26/2003 -0700, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
>Greetings deg,
>
>Nice forays...good to think about...!
>
>And...
>
>Who then do we suppose to have been the 'author' of the
>'work' in this case?
>
>The student, teacher's aide or other camera operative?
>
>And how does that implicitly defer to the University or
>Volkos estate, if it does, and maybe it does not, too?
>
>Nor does the personage as may be regarded as an actual or
>incidental content of the work per-se, obtain implicit
>authorship simply because they are 'in' it, I should not
>think...do they?
>
>Or...?
>
>Phil

First, I'm certainly no lawyer though I do have some limited experience
with copyright and contract law. Who actually holds the copyright for this
recording might take a lawyer to straighten out. The camera operator may
well be the copyright holder unless he signed an agreement assigning that
right to the University. Usually in a work-for-hire agreement who owns the
copyright is clearly spelled out, but there was probably no written
agreement in this case. If the camera operator cannot be identified, the
copyright would probably default to the University since it was filmed at
the university with their equipment on their behalf.

The Voulkos family would not be the copyright holder unless there was a
written agreement assigning it to them. Their rights concerning the use of
the recording would relate to the right to use Peter's image, which is
separate from copyright law. I'm not really familiar with that area of
the law other than knowing it exist.

Since significant dollars are not involved, neither the copyright or the
right to use Peter's image are issues that will likely result a
lawsuit. However, morally the right thing to do is to discuss the
situation with the University and with the Voulkos family - especially the
Voulkos family - before distributing copies.

deg

p.s. In response to comment by someone else: Even if you are doing a good
deed by walking an elderly lady across the street, you can still get a
ticket for jaywalking.

kfstevens2003 on thu 26 jun 03


Hi Phil,

So far I am only giving out 10-20 copies so it realy would be a wast
of some one time and money to mess with me.

For thoughts of you that chipped in $30 for the two hour Peter
Voulkos video footage, the restoration is complete and is being
shipped to me tomorrow. I will start as soon as I can on getting you
guys a copy. I am told it came out real nice and clear. This will be
quite a gem for the few of us that will have it. The offer is still
going if there are a few more takers. You would just need to send me
an email leting me know you want a copy.

kfstevens2003@yahoo.com that is yahoo.com

Ken



--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, pdp1@E... wrote:
> Hey deg,
>
> Hmmmmmm..good point!
>
> And...
>
> As more-or-less extempore of 'tapes', made in a
> school...about which no one later cared, or could have cared
> as IF it say were a Novel they'd written, or some 'work' as
> was an involved or creatuve matter to do...
>
> ...if there was a Copyright?...and I doubt there would have
> been...and, so, if there was not, then, may not Ken
> copyright them now, if he so likes? Or do so as the 'Ken
> Archival Video and Film Salvage and Distribution Company' or
> whatever?
>
> For that matter?
>
> Not that he 'should', but while we're on the topic? Just for
> sake of argument to clearify the subject?
>
> I agree that Copyright should be respected, certainly, and I
> also believe in the notion of 'Public Domain' when something
> 'reasonably' IS Public Domain...
>
> Now as well, 'Trade Marks' can lay dead-as-a-doornail for a
> century, and still be 'owned' by someone, somewhere, and
> they may very well not be replicated or appropriated
> commercially with impunity...which is fine with me...
>
>
>
> Here's one to try for an experiment just to see how 'far'
> you'd get...a curious exemplar...
>
> Try reproduceing even a broad 'parody' of the Painting
> 'American Gothic', and see how quick them old sisters have
> their Lawyers knockin' on your door!
>
>
> Phil
> lasvegas
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dewitt"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 10:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)
>
>
> > At 07:53 PM 6/24/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Hey Ken,
> > >
> > >...it would seem to me that the tapes are yours...
> > >
> > >Nor would I expect anyone to sue you, or to wish to
> controll
> > >their ownership or reproduction.
> > >
> > >I do not think you should worry about any of that.
> >
> > Copyright does not transfer to someone who finds a copy of
> a work in a
> > dumpster. Ken owns the video tape he found and can
> justify making a dvd
> > for his own use. However, making and distributing copies
> is another
> > issue. People on this list have complained when they felt
> their copyrights
> > have been violated. Why is this different? It seems only
> reasonable and
> > fair to suggest that Ken research any copyright issues
> associated with
> > these tapes before going into production. The fact that
> he is financially
> > challenged and 'you can't get blood out of a turnip' is a
> poor excuse for
> > violating someone's copyright.
> >
> > deg
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
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pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on fri 27 jun 03


Hi deg,

Yes...good points!

This was a fun foray...good things to run through our
thoughts...

And as you outline, matters may not allways be so simple as
we may wish!

Regards.

Phil
lasvegas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewitt"
To:
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Found footage of Peter Voulkos (video tape)


> At 11:40 AM 6/26/2003 -0700, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
> >Greetings deg,
> >
> >Nice forays...good to think about...!
> >
> >And...
> >
> >Who then do we suppose to have been the 'author' of the
> >'work' in this case?
> >
> >The student, teacher's aide or other camera operative?
> >
> >And how does that implicitly defer to the University or
> >Volkos estate, if it does, and maybe it does not, too?
> >
> >Nor does the personage as may be regarded as an actual
or
> >incidental content of the work per-se, obtain implicit
> >authorship simply because they are 'in' it, I should not
> >think...do they?
> >
> >Or...?
> >
> >Phil
>
> First, I'm certainly no lawyer though I do have some
limited experience
> with copyright and contract law. Who actually holds the
copyright for this
> recording might take a lawyer to straighten out. The
camera operator may
> well be the copyright holder unless he signed an agreement
assigning that
> right to the University. Usually in a work-for-hire
agreement who owns the
> copyright is clearly spelled out, but there was probably
no written
> agreement in this case. If the camera operator cannot be
identified, the
> copyright would probably default to the University since
it was filmed at
> the university with their equipment on their behalf.
>
> The Voulkos family would not be the copyright holder
unless there was a
> written agreement assigning it to them. Their rights
concerning the use of
> the recording would relate to the right to use Peter's
image, which is
> separate from copyright law. I'm not really familiar
with that area of
> the law other than knowing it exist.
>
> Since significant dollars are not involved, neither the
copyright or the
> right to use Peter's image are issues that will likely
result a
> lawsuit. However, morally the right thing to do is to
discuss the
> situation with the University and with the Voulkos
family - especially the
> Voulkos family - before distributing copies.
>
> deg
>
> p.s. In response to comment by someone else: Even if you
are doing a good
> deed by walking an elderly lady across the street, you can
still get a
> ticket for jaywalking.
>
>
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Burness Speakman on fri 27 jun 03


I used to work in the Motion Picture Industry. Films are not usually
individually Copy Written, to the best of my memory. Though they are
protected under the copy right laws, moreso after it was legislatively
passed. There is an owner of the video/film in question. Volkos probably is
not the owner but only considered the "star" and would have residual rights
if he signed a residual contract of a sort. The owner of the video/film is
the person/entity who paid for it. There may be a grandfather clause, time
limit for claim attached to this but maybe not.

If I found this video in the trash I would probably clean it up put it on
disk and keep it for my own private library. No sharing. All mine. Ken
wants to do this. I'm sure he will learn whether he should or not all on
his own.

kfstevens2003 on sat 28 jun 03


Hi Snail,

Sorry Snail for calling you an ass, that was rude of me. I am sure
you all me well and I thank you for you insight. I am firing a salt
kiln next week so I will be busy boxing all my green ware up. I will
try to check into the group after that. The salt kiln is out on a
farm with no computor.

Ken


--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Snail Scott wrote:
> At 02:13 AM 6/26/03 -0000, you wrote:
> >Hi Snail...
> >Why dont you come up with something first before being an ass.
> >
> >Ken
>
>
> HUH????
> I was on YOUR side, you doofus! I'm sure you
> are fully capable of exploring the proper and
> legal use of this footage. All I said was that
> the presence of something in a dumpster is no
> indication of copyright status. (And neither
> is a lack of official registration.)
>
>
> -Snail
>
>
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