PurpleLama@AOL.COM on sun 25 may 03
I don't know whether the problem with my kiln is that I need new elements or
there is something else wrong. Here's the story.
I have an Aim 1413/2 kiln. I originally bought it 5 or 6 years ago when I
lived in Baltimore for raku. It's an electric kiln that has two plugs. It appears
that each plug is associated with it's on controller switch and element. The
last time I used it in Baltimore, it took 3.5 hours to get to cone 06. (put it
on low for a half hour and then high for 3 hours.)
Then I brought it cross country to Southern CA. I haven't used it for the
last 4+ years. Most of that time, it has been stored outside under a tarp.
Yesterday I decided to try a bisque firing with the kiln (my large kiln is
broken - long story). I started up the kiln at noon on 5 with the lid open. I
closed the kiln 2.5 hours later. Three hours later, I turned both switches to
high. At midnight (6.5 hours on high), the kiln was still going. When I woke up
this morning, the kiln didn't look as hot as it did last night. One of the
circuits was off (It was plugged into an outlet [can't remember what they are
called] that prevents a person from being shocked if you are in contact with
water). I reset the outlet and both circuits of the kiln are now going.
So, my question is, do you think the elements are shot or was something
jolted loose during the trip across the country or sitting outside under a tarp. If
you don't think it's the elements, any suggestions about how to go about
diagnosing the problem?
Thanks for your help.
Shula
in almost sunny Redondo Beach, California USA
Cindi Anderson on sun 25 may 03
Did you plug each plug into a separate circuit with its own breaker? The
way that kiln was designed was so people could get twice the power with just
their normal 110v circuits. But if you plug both plugs into the same
circuit (the same breaker/fuse) then it is too much power and you will trip
the breaker.
Cindi
Fremont, CA
----- Original Message -----
From:
> I have an Aim 1413/2 kiln. I originally bought it 5 or 6 years ago when I
> lived in Baltimore for raku. It's an electric kiln that has two plugs. It
appears
> that each plug is associated with it's on controller switch and element.
Lily Krakowski on sun 25 may 03
Elements wear out and they protest their fatigue by taking longer and longer
and longer to heat up to temp.
I am sure Arnold will give you the details: but there is a gismo
electricians have that measures the resistance "left" in elements. I
understand element manufacturers will tell one what the resistance of each
specific element should be....
Good luck.
PurpleLama@AOL.COM writes:
> I don't know whether the problem with my kiln is that I need new elements or
> there is something else wrong. Here's the story.
>
> I have an Aim 1413/2 kiln. I originally bought it 5 or 6 years ago when I
> lived in Baltimore for raku. It's an electric kiln that has two plugs. It appears
> that each plug is associated with it's on controller switch and element. The
> last time I used it in Baltimore, it took 3.5 hours to get to cone 06. (put it
> on low for a half hour and then high for 3 hours.)
>
> Then I brought it cross country to Southern CA. I haven't used it for the
> last 4+ years. Most of that time, it has been stored outside under a tarp.
>
> Yesterday I decided to try a bisque firing with the kiln (my large kiln is
> broken - long story). I started up the kiln at noon on 5 with the lid open. I
> closed the kiln 2.5 hours later. Three hours later, I turned both switches to
> high. At midnight (6.5 hours on high), the kiln was still going. When I woke up
> this morning, the kiln didn't look as hot as it did last night. One of the
> circuits was off (It was plugged into an outlet [can't remember what they are
> called] that prevents a person from being shocked if you are in contact with
> water). I reset the outlet and both circuits of the kiln are now going.
>
> So, my question is, do you think the elements are shot or was something
> jolted loose during the trip across the country or sitting outside under a tarp. If
> you don't think it's the elements, any suggestions about how to go about
> diagnosing the problem?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Shula
> in almost sunny Redondo Beach, California USA
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Lili Krakowski
P.O. Box #1
Constableville, N.Y.
(315) 942-5916/ 397-2389
Be of good courage....
PurpleLama@AOL.COM on sun 25 may 03
<< Did you plug each plug into a separate circuit with its own breaker? The
way that kiln was designed was so people could get twice the power with just
their normal 110v circuits. But if you plug both plugs into the same
circuit (the same breaker/fuse) then it is too much power and you will trip
the breaker. >>
Each plug was in a separate circuit with it's own breaker. That is the first
thing I checked - before I plugged them in. Only one outlet went off & had to
be reset; the circuit breaker for the line did not.
Thanks
Shula
in bright Redondo Beach, CA USA
David Coggins on mon 26 may 03
Shula
If you have outlets with "earth leakage" protective circuit breakers as you
suggest, they would have sensed the moisture in the bricks from the long
storage, and thinking it was a fault condition, tripped the power off. Now
the bricks are dried out, it shouldn't happen again.
Dave
David & Elaine Coggins
dcoggins@bigpond.com
www.users.bigpond.com/dcoggins
----- Original Message -----
Most of that time, it has been stored outside under a tarp.
>
. One of the
> circuits was off (It was plugged into an outlet [can't remember what they
are
> called] that prevents a person from being shocked if you are in contact
with
> water). I reset the outlet and both circuits of the kiln are now going.
>
Elizabeth Hewitt on mon 26 may 03
Lily said: Elements wear out and they protest their fatigue by taking
longer and longer
and longer to heat up to temp.
___________________
You may have answered a question I had not gotten around to ask yet. Are
you saying that the elements die slowly, so to speak? I've noticed
my firings taking longer and longer. When I have tested them by starting
the kiln up and checking them all through the peep holes to see if they
are all functioning...all are but some brighter than others. This is
my first kiln, on its sixth year, but I didn't know what to expect when
they finally need replacing. Sounds like mine do, right? I was
expecting an all or nothing with them...what do I know!
Elizabeth
Cindi Anderson on mon 26 may 03
Yes, exactly. It is possible for them to die suddenly, but usually they
just get weaker over time and the firings will take longer and longer. At
the time when it is getting too long for you, it is time to replace the
elements. (Other things can make a firing take longer also, so you would be
looking for a trend. The other things include low voltage on the line
(happens a lot in summer when people are running air conditioners, and also
many power companies lowered the voltage during the power crisis a few years
ago.) And also how full the kiln is (more full will fire faster.)
Cindi
Fremont, CA
-----------------------------
You may have answered a question I had not gotten around to ask yet. Are
> you saying that the elements die slowly, so to speak? I've noticed
> my firings taking longer and longer.
PurpleLama@AOL.COM on mon 26 may 03
Lily said: Elements wear out and they protest their fatigue by taking
longer and longer
and longer to heat up to temp.
___________________
Elizabeth wrote: You may have answered a question I had not gotten around to
ask yet. Are
you saying that the elements die slowly, so to speak?
I wondered the same thing. What is strange with my case is that the kiln went
from 3 or so hours to go to cone 06 to more than 24 hours. That was the
difference between one load and the next - not what I call dying slowly.
Shula
in sunny Redondo Beach, CA USA
Snail Scott on mon 26 may 03
At 03:34 PM 5/26/03 EDT, you wrote:
>...What is strange with my case is that the kiln went
>from 3 or so hours to go to cone 06 to more than 24 hours. That was the
>difference between one load and the next - not what I call dying slowly.
Elements do wear out slowly. But they can also fail
suddenly. Very often the culprit is a broken element
caused by a little chunk of glaze, etc, that stuck
and caused an invisible failure. Fire up the kiln
so that all the elements are on maximum power. Let
it run for about 20 minutes, then look through the
peepholes. Are any of the elements dark? If so,
there's your culprit. The failure of even one element
can drastically affect firing time.
-Snail
Arnold Howard on tue 27 may 03
It sounds like the GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) tripped while
your kiln fired. The GFCI is notorious for tripping for no apparent
reason.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P.
www.paragonweb.com
From:
> I have an Aim 1413/2 kiln. I originally bought it 5 or 6 years ago
when I
> lived in Baltimore for raku. It's an electric kiln that has two plugs.
It appears
> that each plug is associated with it's on controller switch and
element. The
> last time I used it in Baltimore, it took 3.5 hours to get to cone 06.
(put it
> on low for a half hour and then high for 3 hours.)
>
> Then I brought it cross country to Southern CA. I haven't used it for
the
> last 4+ years. Most of that time, it has been stored outside under a
tarp.
>
> Yesterday I decided to try a bisque firing with the kiln (my large
kiln is
> broken - long story). I started up the kiln at noon on 5 with the lid
open. I
> closed the kiln 2.5 hours later. Three hours later, I turned both
switches to
> high. At midnight (6.5 hours on high), the kiln was still going. When
I woke up
> this morning, the kiln didn't look as hot as it did last night. One of
the
> circuits was off (It was plugged into an outlet [can't remember what
they are
> called] that prevents a person from being shocked if you are in
contact with
> water). I reset the outlet and both circuits of the kiln are now
going.
>
> So, my question is, do you think the elements are shot or was
something
> jolted loose during the trip across the country or sitting outside
under a tarp. If
> you don't think it's the elements, any suggestions about how to go
about
> diagnosing the problem?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Shula
Arnold Howard on tue 27 may 03
An ohmmeter is a very handy tool for kiln repair.
A pointer on checking elements with an ohmmeter: You ordinarily don't
have to disconnect the lead wires to the element to test the element.
But if elements are wired in parallel, then you will need to remove one
wire before testing the element. Otherwise the current from the ohmmeter
will travel through multiple elements and give a false reading for the
element you are testing.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P.
www.paragonweb.com
From: Lily Krakowski
> I am sure Arnold will give you the details: but there is a gismo
> electricians have that measures the resistance "left" in elements. I
> understand element manufacturers will tell one what the resistance of
each
> specific element should be....
Arnold Howard on tue 27 may 03
A possible reason that some elements appear brighter than others is that
the elements in your kiln are "tuned." This means that some elements are
designed to produce more heat than others.
The lid and bottom of a top-loading kiln require more heat than the rest
of the kiln. This is because the lid and bottom are massive areas that
absorb energy. To give the lid and bottom extra heat, the top and bottom
elements of some kilns are given extra power. The center elements may
not even turn red until 1000°F.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P.
www.paragonweb.com
From: Elizabeth Hewitt
I've noticed
> my firings taking longer and longer. When I have tested them by
starting
> the kiln up and checking them all through the peep holes to see if
they
> are all functioning...all are but some brighter than others. This is
> my first kiln, on its sixth year, but I didn't know what to expect
when
> they finally need replacing. Sounds like mine do, right? I was
> expecting an all or nothing with them...what do I know!
>
> Elizabeth
Louis Katz on tue 27 may 03
Most consumer GFI duplex outlets trip at 15 amps I believe. If the
kiln requires 20 amp circuits this may be the problem.
If I remember accurately there are 20 amp GFI duplex outlets
available.
Louis
On Tuesday, May 27, 2003, at 08:24 AM, Arnold Howard wrote:
> .... One of the circuits was off (It was plugged into an outlet [can't
> remember what they are called] that prevents a person from being
> shocked if you are in contact with water). I reset the outlet and both
> circuits of the kiln are now going.
Longtin, Jeff on tue 27 may 03
Just a note for those of you unfamiliar with these little suckers. GFCI
outlets are the new kind of outlets designed to be installed in bathrooms
and kitchens primarily, i.e. where the licklyhood of a child or adult
electrocuting themselves is high. Yes they are sensitive but they are also
life savers. They're extremely convenient because they have a little breaker
switch on the outlet itself so if you do trip the circuit you can reset it
very quickly.
As Arnold mentioned they are finicky little beasts. That quality tends to be
sporadic. If you have a socket which trips alot just replace it, its likely
the next one will not be so problematic.
Jeff Longtin
in sunny eagan, minnesota,
-----Original Message-----
From: Arnold Howard [mailto:arnoldhoward@ATT.NET]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:25 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: help wanted:need new elements or ?
It sounds like the GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) tripped while
your kiln fired. The GFCI is notorious for tripping for no apparent
reason.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P.
www.paragonweb.com
From:
> I have an Aim 1413/2 kiln. I originally bought it 5 or 6 years ago
when I
> lived in Baltimore for raku. It's an electric kiln that has two plugs.
It appears
> that each plug is associated with it's on controller switch and
element. The
> last time I used it in Baltimore, it took 3.5 hours to get to cone 06.
(put it
> on low for a half hour and then high for 3 hours.)
>
> Then I brought it cross country to Southern CA. I haven't used it for
the
> last 4+ years. Most of that time, it has been stored outside under a
tarp.
>
> Yesterday I decided to try a bisque firing with the kiln (my large
kiln is
> broken - long story). I started up the kiln at noon on 5 with the lid
open. I
> closed the kiln 2.5 hours later. Three hours later, I turned both
switches to
> high. At midnight (6.5 hours on high), the kiln was still going. When
I woke up
> this morning, the kiln didn't look as hot as it did last night. One of
the
> circuits was off (It was plugged into an outlet [can't remember what
they are
> called] that prevents a person from being shocked if you are in
contact with
> water). I reset the outlet and both circuits of the kiln are now
going.
>
> So, my question is, do you think the elements are shot or was
something
> jolted loose during the trip across the country or sitting outside
under a tarp. If
> you don't think it's the elements, any suggestions about how to go
about
> diagnosing the problem?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Shula
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Carl Finch on tue 27 may 03
At 11:15 AM 5/27/03 -0500, Louis Katz wrote:
>Most consumer GFI duplex outlets trip at 15 amps I believe.
NO! GFCI's (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters) may be rated to carry a
load of 15 amps, but they only "trip" on current imbalance between the hot
(black) and neutral (white) wires. And that allowed imbalance is just 5
milliamperes--more than that and they trip, and very quickly. The
imbalance is a result of some of the current going somewhere it shouldn't,
'faulting' to ground (perhaps through you or me!) and 5 or less milliamps
is reckoned to be non-fatal.
This is NOT related to their load carrying capacity.
>If the kiln requires 20 amp circuits this may be the problem.
No. They do not detect overload. That's the job of the Circuit Breaker.
>If I remember accurately there are 20 amp GFI duplex outlets
>available.
Yes--those are what I recently installed.
--Carl
in Medford, Oregon
Clay Art Information on tue 27 may 03
Good day,
A very small difference of 5 milliampere, would trigger the outlet to
trip.
Check the following:
GFI outlet will trip if the unit is not properly grounded. Small amount
of current leakage, would trigger the outlet to turn off. This is a
safety feature that prevents electricity to ground through the user.
Kindly check the rating of your GFI outlet, there are two kinds that you
can acquire, 15A or 20A, this is usually indicated on the name plate of
the outlet.
Age is also a factor, if the outlet is old, it may need to be
replaced, due to too much sensitivity.
Check your kiln manufacturer on the amperage consumption of your kiln.
Sudden surge can also trigger the outlet to trip.
Hope that this helps.
Best regards,
Arthur Morales
Nidec-Shimpo America
ConeArt Kilns (Div of Shimpo Ceramics)
(800) 842-1479 ext. 150
Most of the permanent magnet motors
Roger Korn on tue 27 may 03
GFI outlets and breakers work by sensing current in the ground wire -
there shouldn't be any unless there is leakage to ground. If the "hot"
and "neutral" currents don't match exactly, a ground fault exists and
the breaker trips. The oversensitivity problem results from induced
currents in the ground wire that are the result of stray magnetic fields
from external devices such as motors, generators, or even some RFI
(radio frequency interference) sources. Trying to resolve this problem
has absorbed a lot of research and development effort - I owned this
project for about 8 months when I worked at Allis-Chalmers Research in
1964, and many others are still trying to find a solution that will
allow more sensitive ground-fault sensing without adding more nuisance
tripping as an undesired consequence.
Hope this helps,
Roger
Louis Katz wrote:
> Most consumer GFI duplex outlets trip at 15 amps I believe. If the
> kiln requires 20 amp circuits this may be the problem.
> If I remember accurately there are 20 amp GFI duplex outlets
> available.
> Louis
> On Tuesday, May 27, 2003, at 08:24 AM, Arnold Howard wrote:
>
>> .... One of the circuits was off (It was plugged into an outlet [can't
>> remember what they are called] that prevents a person from being
>> shocked if you are in contact with water). I reset the outlet and both
>> circuits of the kiln are now going.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
--
Roger Korn
McKay Creek Ceramics
In AZ: PO Box 463
4215 Culpepper Ranch Rd
Rimrock, AZ 86335
928-567-5699 <-
In OR: PO Box 436
31330 NW Pacific Ave.
North Plains, OR 97133
503-647-5464
Carl Finch on wed 28 may 03
At 02:28 PM 5/27/03 -0700, Roger Korn wrote:
>GFI outlets and breakers work by sensing current in the ground wire -
>there shouldn't be any unless there is leakage to ground.
I believe this is incorrect, because GFCI receptacles can be used
effectively for older 2-wire circuits where there is NO ground available!
Indeed, if you open a receptacle package you will find a set of labels to
be applied to the GFCI receptacles installed in such a circuit that
cautions, "No appliance ground present" (or words to that effect).
>If the "hot" and "neutral" currents don't match exactly,
>a ground fault exists and the breaker trips.
Yes, that is my understanding. The breaker or receptacle is comparing
hot/neutral currents, not sensing any current in the safety ground.
>The oversensitivity problem results from induced
>currents in the ground wire that are the result of stray magnetic fields
>from external devices such as motors, generators, or even some RFI
>(radio frequency interference) sources. Trying to resolve this problem
>has absorbed a lot of research and development effort - I owned this
>project for about 8 months when I worked at Allis-Chalmers Research in
>1964, and many others are still trying to find a solution that will
>allow more sensitive ground-fault sensing without adding more nuisance
>tripping as an undesired consequence.
I've heard a lot about this "nuisance tripping," and not knowing how likely
it is or isn't, have wired the single-outlet receptacle that powers my kiln
vent blower to a non-GFCI circuit. This is NEC-allowed for simplex
receptacles that power a single appliance (e.g., refrigerators).
--Carl
in Medford, Oregon
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