Elizabeth Herod on sun 23 mar 03
One of the reasons that I would prefer not to see the political views
expressed on the boards is the conflicts that it inevitably creates.
Example:
I signed up for a workshop with a person that has openly stated things that
are offensive to me. What do I do? Do I bite the bullet and go to this
workshop, do I ask for a refund? What do I do?
I love clay. I love my family, and I support my family.
Why is it that statements here are making me feel that I have to make a
choice?
Why cannot I not attend a workshop and learn about clay and processes? Am I
supposed to go to the workshop and listen to politics that I choose to
avoid?
I really have a problem with this.
Beth
Dean Walker on mon 24 mar 03
Beth...That is why I quite going to college. The art instructors just could
not resist poo pooing on Christians and those with conservative views. That
is why I never refer to myself as an "artist". I am afraid someone will
mistake me for a close minded narcissist.
Dean
Vince Pitelka on mon 24 mar 03
> I signed up for a workshop with a person that has openly stated things
that
> are offensive to me. What do I do? Do I bite the bullet and go to this
> workshop, do I ask for a refund? What do I do?
Beth -
I have an idea as to who that workshop presenter might be. But how is this
different than any other gathering, and why would you be so offended by one
person expressing their own opinions, and why would you even think that in a
workshop venue those views would necessarily even come up? If a political
conversation begins, it is likely that there will be differing opinions, but
why would that affect your enjoyment and appreciation of either Clayrt or a
workshop? I am having a hard time with this. We are each entitled to our
own opinions. Now you are implying that this workshop presenter you speak
of should not have expressed her or his opinions on Clayart. Is that really
what you intend to say?
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
L. P. Skeen on mon 24 mar 03
Beth,
Workshops are places where there's not much room for politics to be
discussed, at least not in the workshop setting. A quality presenter won't
discuss politics in the classroom - she'll be too busy teaching clay, and if
the presenter strays too far from the subject matter, the workshop
coordinator (who is paying the presenter), will prolly ask the presenter to
stay on track during classtime. What happens during breaks and lunchtime
are up to you. You don't have to talk about politics, and you can walk away
if others are doing so.
My two cents.........
L
> I signed up for a workshop with a person that has openly stated things
that
> are offensive to me. What do I do? Do I bite the bullet and go to this
> workshop, do I ask for a refund? What do I do?
> Why cannot I not attend a workshop and learn about clay and processes? Am
I
> supposed to go to the workshop and listen to politics that I choose to
> avoid?
>
> I really have a problem with this.
Lily Krakowski on mon 24 mar 03
Ok. We all now have been dancing around our feelings about the current AG
our feelings about the War.
Then I am sure we all have feelings about all sorts of stuff that we can get
really bent out of shape over. You would be surprised how wound up I can
get about Basic Issues. That is, Basic Issues to me...(In my house people
use "whom" or leave...)
Dear Beth, then. When you go to a workshop you are there to enjoy learning.
You are there to learn whatever about clay. Not going would be to boycott
that person, exactly as you would be boycotting a store. "Why is Beth not
here? She said she was coming." "Well, she heard that person wore brown
shoes with a blue suit!" "Oh my goodness! If only I had known"
You really have to design your own test. Litmus or moral, or whatever. How
offensive is this person's opinion to you? Is it about an important issue?
Is it a long term lifestyle thing like bigotry or racism? How important is
this issue in your life?
Will that person's to-you-despicable opinions affect your enjoyment of the
workshop? Knowing this person serves a concotion of marshmallow and fruit
called (I think) Ambrosia, will you be skeptical about her glaze recipes?
Will you lose all your friends, will your llama spit at you, if you go/don't
go?
No one can decide for you. This is Beth vs. Beth. May the better woman
win.
Elizabeth Herod writes:
> One of the reasons that I would prefer not to see the political views
> expressed on the boards is the conflicts that it inevitably creates.
>
> Example:
>
> I signed up for a workshop with a person that has openly stated things that
> are offensive to me. What do I do? Do I bite the bullet and go to this
> workshop, do I ask for a refund? What do I do?
>
> I love clay. I love my family, and I support my family.
>
> Why is it that statements here are making me feel that I have to make a
> choice?
>
> Why cannot I not attend a workshop and learn about clay and processes? Am I
> supposed to go to the workshop and listen to politics that I choose to
> avoid?
>
> I really have a problem with this.
>
> Beth
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Lili Krakowski
P.O. Box #1
Constableville, N.Y.
(315) 942-5916/ 397-2389
Be of good courage....
Earl Brunner on mon 24 mar 03
Another thing I would add Beth is that anyone good enough to give a
workshop (and good enough to raise your interest enough to consider
going in the first place) is probably pretty professional in their
workshop presentation. There are people that I often don't see eye to
eye with on this list on issues who are wonderful caring individuals, I
just don't happen to agree with them on some issues. In every other way
I like them and consider them my friends. If I only talked to, or
associated with people who thought like me on ever issue, it would be a
pretty sad world (at least for me, the rest of the world would no doubt
get along just fine)
If you are REALLY concerned, email the presenter your concerns, you
might be surprised.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Lily
Krakowski
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 5:50 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Political views and workshops
Dear Beth, then. When you go to a workshop you are there to enjoy
learning.
You are there to learn whatever about clay. Not going would be to
boycott
that person, exactly as you would be boycotting a store. "Why is Beth
not
here? She said she was coming." "Well, she heard that person wore brown
shoes with a blue suit!" "Oh my goodness! If only I had known"
You really have to design your own test. Litmus or moral, or whatever.
How
offensive is this person's opinion to you? Is it about an important
issue?
Is it a long term lifestyle thing like bigotry or racism? How important
is
this issue in your life?
Will that person's to-you-despicable opinions affect your enjoyment of
the
workshop? Knowing this person serves a concotion of marshmallow and
fruit
called (I think) Ambrosia, will you be skeptical about her glaze
recipes?
Will you lose all your friends, will your llama spit at you, if you
go/don't
go?
No one can decide for you. This is Beth vs. Beth. May the better woman
win.
Dean Walker on tue 25 mar 03
Gayle, thanks for the insight and the encouragement. When I desided not to
go on and finish my art degree I was already 37 years old. It was my second
run at it. It just seemed to me after my last semester that I should do just
as you suggested.....grow up and create beautiful art. There were just too
many other resources like CLAYART , great books, wonderful artists willing to
share their knowledge and friendship.....not to mention wacky political views
to waste money and time on something I thought I needed , a degree. Hell, my
brother is a socialist and until recently an atheist, as well. I LOVE a good
productive argument with a lot of verbal gymnastics......but NOT when I am
paying for a service. I will be 51 this year and so far no one asks me if I
have a degree before they purchase my work.
The opinions on CLAYART are great to read....and so is all the valuable
information about clay and processes. All this info is given freely and from
the heart....for the love of sharing creative ideas. Everyone is extremely
generous with their time. It is genuine and precious....the very things I
belive makes America work.
Dean
claybair on tue 25 mar 03
Sorry Dean,
I do not accept your excuse for quitting college.
Having been a minority for one reason or another throughout my lifetime I
never quit because anyone "poo-pooed" my views or beliefs.
Some advice......
Grow up.
Keep your eyes on the prize....e.g. becoming a great artist.
Confrontations with extremists are always unproductive.
Do I care if the guy who fixes my car is politically right wing or left wing
as long as he does a great job........ hell no! Will I get into an political
argument with him..... Hell no!!!
Be more secure in your beliefs.
Now on the other hand you could have discussed with your instructors that
their political discussions in class was making you uncomfortable, was
counter productive & had nothing to do with you becoming a better painter.
I had a somewhat similar event in my college experience with very
narcissistic Painting Department instructors. If you didn't paint like them
or converse in their jargon you were in left field, ignored and given
mediocre grades. Instead of quitting I toured the college to find a
department that was open to expression and didn't confine it to whim. I
switched from painting to printmaking in my sophomore year and have never
regretted it! I still paint, my pottery reflects my printmaking and painting
backgrounds.
The greatest instructor I ever had never deviated from art. He was a
whirlwind....... going from one student to another critiquing, cajoling,
embarrassing and make every single one of us a better artist. He was a
Russian Jewish immigrant about 5 ft tall who spoke with a very thick accent.
He was continually criticized by those idiots in the Painting Dept. He never
told me what or how to draw....he taught me how to see!
He died many years ago without tribute or fanfare BUT Karl Sherman was and
still is my hero! He lives on in me and all the other students he touched
with his passion for art.
Anyway... rant over.......go make something beautiful Dean!
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Walker
Beth...That is why I quite going to college. The art instructors just could
not resist poo pooing on Christians and those with conservative views. That
is why I never refer to myself as an "artist". I am afraid someone will
mistake me for a close minded narcissist.
Dean
Elizabeth Herod on tue 25 mar 03
Vince and all--
Vince wrote <of should not have expressed her or his opinions on Clayart. Is that reall=
y
what you intend to say?<<
Absolutely not! I defend everyone=B9s right to express their opinions. I
don=B9t expect people to agree with me. (First of all, I live in the
Northeast, and secondly, I grew up in the far east from 1963-1968 on a
fighter base. My high school was at a base used as an Army hospital unit.
I returned to the States just in time to get the full brunt of how the
country felt about the military and their dependants).
War and politics are on everyone=B9s mind right now, with good reason. What =
I
object to is the bashing and name calling. As an example, I do not like th=
e
term =B3baby killer=B2 used for a doctor who performs abortions. I find that
offensive. It makes no difference where I stand on abortion, the term is
totally unnecessary. I=B9d prefer not to see some of the derogatory
adjectives that have been used. Expression of opinion can be had without
stooping to name calling.
It is possible to disagree without offending people. The other day a fello=
w
student attacked and said, =B3What the hell is wrong with you, are you out of
your mind?=B2 =B3I replied that we would not agree, and it was probably best
not to discuss the topic.=B2 I did feel blind-sided and it was all because I
had said I did not share the same opinion. My throwing pots was over for
the day. I would have liked for it to roll off my back, but it wasn=B9t so
simple. Call me weak, whatever, but it really upset me, and I couldn=B9t
work. I=B9m determined that this Friday I won=B9t let it happen again. Classe=
s
are not cheap.
And, if you disrespect the military in my presence, I=B9ll throw a pot at you=
.
:)
Beth
P. S. My brother is program director for =B3Top Scene=B2, part of NAVAIR, and
my nephew is currently in Northern Iraq.
Cat Yassin on tue 25 mar 03
In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:17:51 AM Central Standard Time,
bcherod@BESTWEB.NET writes:
> Why cannot I not attend a workshop and learn about clay and processes? Am I
> supposed to go to the workshop and listen to politics that I choose to
> avoid?
>
Beth, I agree with Lili that it is your personal choice. I don't think your
quandry is unlike that of a person who chooses to boycott a particular
entertainer's movie or concert. I will say that if you are paying to learn
about clay and processes then that is what you should get at the workshop.
Just as when one goes to a concert they are paying for the artist to perform
their songs, not hear their political views. If the workshop artist does use
the workshop time to discuss political views or non-clay topics then they run
the risk of alienating the attendees who don't share their views.
Personally, I am turned off by entertainers who use their medium to attack
politicians and ppl with different political offiliations. I am less inclined
to spend my money on their products if I find them offensive. What I find
offensive may not be what someone else finds offensive, thus it is my choice
to boycott their products. If you feel you can't overcome your distaste for
something an artist said and it will take away from the workshop experience,
then don't go. It is your money, and your time... But I would think a true
professional wouldn't use workshop time to discuss political views.
-Cat Yassin
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