Sheryl VanVleck on sun 9 mar 03
I have read articles about potters using slip over metal armitures, but I
would like to know if there are any recommendations about what to use to
strengthen a slab. The piece is to be two slab pieces hinged like a book and
with additional elements. Some of these will support the slab, but I am still
worried that the clay will not be strong enough. I use nylon fibre in my
sculptures but wondered about using wire inserted and fired. I plan on
running some tests this week, but would like to hear if anyone has experience
with this.
I did check the Clayart archives, but didn't hit on the right combination of
words to come up with anything.
Thanks for your help
Shery in Wyoming
Cl Litman on sun 9 mar 03
I played around with inserting wires in clay figures (kid's classes -
wild hair) and firing. 06 was fine, the paper clips got thinned but
stood up to the firing. 14 gauge copper wire was also fine. Made the
mistake of including a piece in a cone 6 firing and the metal melted and
almost ate through the shelf. No adverse affects on the clay that I saw.
No way of knowing other than to experiment but I would suggest having a
clay coaster underneath just in case.
Cheryl Litman - NJ
cheryllitman@juno.com
On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 12:06:57 EST Sheryl VanVleck
writes:
> I have read articles about potters using slip over metal armitures,
> but I
> would like to know if there are any recommendations about what to
> use to
> strengthen a slab. The piece is to be two slab pieces hinged like a
> book and
> with additional elements. Some of these will support the slab, but I
> am still
> worried that the clay will not be strong enough. I use nylon fibre
> in my
> sculptures but wondered about using wire inserted and fired. I plan
> on
> running some tests this week, but would like to hear if anyone has
> experience
> with this.
Sheryl VanVleck on mon 10 mar 03
Opps!! Should have mentioned that I fire CT-3 clay to cone 2.
As Cheryl Litman (thanks Cheryl) pointed out, that might make a
difference.
I think I may go out and see if I can find some aluminum screen and try it.
Mostly, I'm worried about the piece cracking because it shrinks and the metal
doesn't. Well, then, I'm also worried about it melting through and not
helping with strength at all.
Sheryl in Wyoming
Logan Oplinger on mon 10 mar 03
Dear Sheryl,
Without knowing the dimensions, shape, weight or the maximum temperature of
the fired piece, it is difficult to make a recommendation about exactly
what type, shape, form, or gauge (size) of wire to use.
A lot will depend upon whether or not you intend on imbedding the wire into
the clay slabs. The wire will have to be flexible enough in order to shape
the slab unless the clay is draped or pressed around a somewhat rigid
preformed wire shape. Also, the difference in the expansion/shrinkage with
heat of the clay/wire composite must also be considered.
There are many manufacturers of high-temperature wire, some which are
specialty purpose. Some of these same companies also manufacture wire mesh
or screen from the same high-temp. wire.
Some good general information can be found at:
http://www.wovenwire.com/reference/material.htm
A comprehensive listing of companies can be found at:
http://www.wire-ez.com/wire/0056120_0028297_1.html
One craft supply company, Kemper (no personal affiliation), provides high-
temperature wire for use as armature wire suitable to cone 5. This can be
found at:
http://kempertools.com:8080/servlet/catalog.kempertools.KTCatalogServlet?
page_title=Ceramics&page_number=9&
I hope this information is helpful.
Logan Oplinger
Another Pacific Island
Latitude: 13.5 Longitude: -144.7
On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 12:06:57 EST, Sheryl VanVleck wrote:
>I have read articles about potters using slip over metal armitures, but I
>would like to know if there are any recommendations about what to use to
>strengthen a slab. The piece is to be two slab pieces hinged like a book
and
>with additional elements. Some of these will support the slab, but I am
still
>worried that the clay will not be strong enough. I use nylon fibre in my
>sculptures but wondered about using wire inserted and fired. I plan on
>running some tests this week, but would like to hear if anyone has
experience
>with this.
>
>I did check the Clayart archives, but didn't hit on the right combination
of
>words to come up with anything.
>
>Thanks for your help
>Shery in Wyoming
Vince Pitelka on mon 10 mar 03
> Oops!! Should have mentioned that I fire CT-3 clay to cone 2.
> I think I may go out and see if I can find some aluminum screen and try
it.
> Mostly, I'm worried about the piece cracking because it shrinks and the
metal
> doesn't. Well, then, I'm also worried about it melting through and not
> helping with strength at all.
Sheryl -
Both are legitimate worries. The clay will most likely separate in line
with the screen, because it will try and shrink as it is drying, but of
course the screen will not allow any shrinkage. If you were simply to imbed
a criss-cross pattern of thin wire in the clay that might work, because the
clay will be able to move along the wire as it shrinks. In screen the wires
are attached together normally, or else woven so tightly that they cannot
move at all, and thus do not allow for shrinkage.
Aluminum wire will not work at all, nor will brass or copper at cone 2,
because they will dissociate to their component oxides long before cone 2.
Iron wire will only work marginally, and will probably oxidize so thoroughly
that it is weaker than the clay itself. Stainless steel wire is your only
realistic option, and it will get a bit expensive if you do much of this.
Ceramic faculty member Walter Hall at Hartford Art School did some nice
pieces by coating screen materials with high-duty refractory cement, which
is designed to have no shrinkage as it dries and fires. You might consider
that, if it works for your project.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
cookie davis on mon 10 mar 03
Greetings!
I have created several forms which sound like the description below. I have
experimented repeated with various wires/metals and have a few observations
on this sort of form...
High fired wire will work fine, esp for cone 4. Most others will of course
naturally melt on the piece itself....
If you're firing to cone 010-06 all will be ok...I buy various types of
metal (wire at various sizes, chicken wire, copper wire, steel wires, gutter
covers, fencing, squared wire sheets etc) from Lowes/Home Depot...
The trick as usual is to be careful with the drying. My forms too are in
"book" shapes, and even are books, but if you dry too rapidly your pieces
will really, really, really crack. So far I've found that an obscenely
loooong drying time helps...mine go for 2-3 weeks average. with plastic
under and over the slabs. If you don't cover them they will crack and
drastically...
I have a lot of interesting results from working with wire and wire
forms...experiment with the various elements and have fun! :)
hope this helps in some way,
cookie
>
> >I have read articles about potters using slip over metal armitures, but I
> >would like to know if there are any recommendations about what to use to
> >strengthen a slab. The piece is to be two slab pieces hinged like a book
>and
> >with additional elements. Some of these will support the slab, but I am
>still
> >worried that the clay will not be strong enough. I use nylon fibre in my
> >sculptures but wondered about using wire inserted and fired. I plan on
> >running some tests this week, but would like to hear if anyone has
>experience
> >with this.
> >
> >I did check the Clayart archives, but didn't hit on the right combination
>of
> >words to come up with anything.
> >
> >Thanks for your help
> >Shery in Wyoming
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________
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Tony Ferguson on mon 10 mar 03
Cookie,
Do you have any pictures of your work you could share? I have been getting
into some unsual sculpture forms and am curious about yours. I use a lot of
grog and fiber and that seems to do the trick in most applications.
Thank you.
Tony Ferguson
On Lake Superior, where the sky meets the Lake
Stoneware, Porcelain, Raku and more
by Coleman, Ferguson, Winchester...
www.aquariusartgallery.com
218-727-6339
315 N. Lake Ave
Apt 312
Duluth, MN 55806
----- Original Message -----
From: "cookie davis"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: Putting metal/wire in clay for strength
> Greetings!
>
> I have created several forms which sound like the description below. I
have
> experimented repeated with various wires/metals and have a few
observations
> on this sort of form...
>
> High fired wire will work fine, esp for cone 4. Most others will of
course
> naturally melt on the piece itself....
>
> If you're firing to cone 010-06 all will be ok...I buy various types of
> metal (wire at various sizes, chicken wire, copper wire, steel wires,
gutter
> covers, fencing, squared wire sheets etc) from Lowes/Home Depot...
> The trick as usual is to be careful with the drying. My forms too are in
> "book" shapes, and even are books, but if you dry too rapidly your pieces
> will really, really, really crack. So far I've found that an obscenely
> loooong drying time helps...mine go for 2-3 weeks average. with plastic
> under and over the slabs. If you don't cover them they will crack and
> drastically...
>
> I have a lot of interesting results from working with wire and wire
> forms...experiment with the various elements and have fun! :)
>
> hope this helps in some way,
> cookie
>
> >
> > >I have read articles about potters using slip over metal armitures, but
I
> > >would like to know if there are any recommendations about what to use
to
> > >strengthen a slab. The piece is to be two slab pieces hinged like a
book
> >and
> > >with additional elements. Some of these will support the slab, but I am
> >still
> > >worried that the clay will not be strong enough. I use nylon fibre in
my
> > >sculptures but wondered about using wire inserted and fired. I plan on
> > >running some tests this week, but would like to hear if anyone has
> >experience
> > >with this.
> > >
> > >I did check the Clayart archives, but didn't hit on the right
combination
> >of
> > >words to come up with anything.
> > >
> > >Thanks for your help
> > >Shery in Wyoming
> >
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> >melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
cookie davis on tue 11 mar 03
Tony,
Thought I'd post to all who'd be interested...
I don't have pictures of the "book" forms, but here are some of my wire
(flat) pedistals (a concept long in development...) with bowls... also a
detail picture of some small sculptural forms that I've been working on
which incorporated plain wire...the rest are aluminum screen, chicken wire,
and fencing materials...
In the past I've also rakued the wire/clay forms and they turn out really
well...
enjoy...
cookie
ps in the crisscross picture, you can see how the clay works when the
fencing is crossed over each other...I've noticed these pieces are quite
stronger structurally...
>From: Tony Ferguson
>Reply-To: Clayart
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Putting metal/wire in clay for strength
>Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:36:25 -0600
>
>Cookie,
>
>Do you have any pictures of your work you could share? I have been getting
>into some unsual sculpture forms and am curious about yours. I use a lot of
>grog and fiber and that seems to do the trick in most applications.
>
>Thank you.
>
>Tony Ferguson
>On Lake Superior, where the sky meets the Lake
>
>Stoneware, Porcelain, Raku and more
>by Coleman, Ferguson, Winchester...
>www.aquariusartgallery.com
>218-727-6339
>315 N. Lake Ave
>Apt 312
>Duluth, MN 55806
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "cookie davis"
>To:
>Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 2:18 PM
>Subject: Re: Putting metal/wire in clay for strength
>
>
> > Greetings!
> >
> > I have created several forms which sound like the description below. I
>have
> > experimented repeated with various wires/metals and have a few
>observations
> > on this sort of form...
> >
> > High fired wire will work fine, esp for cone 4. Most others will of
>course
> > naturally melt on the piece itself....
> >
> > If you're firing to cone 010-06 all will be ok...I buy various types of
> > metal (wire at various sizes, chicken wire, copper wire, steel wires,
>gutter
> > covers, fencing, squared wire sheets etc) from Lowes/Home Depot...
> > The trick as usual is to be careful with the drying. My forms too are
>in
> > "book" shapes, and even are books, but if you dry too rapidly your
>pieces
> > will really, really, really crack. So far I've found that an obscenely
> > loooong drying time helps...mine go for 2-3 weeks average. with plastic
> > under and over the slabs. If you don't cover them they will crack and
> > drastically...
> >
> > I have a lot of interesting results from working with wire and wire
> > forms...experiment with the various elements and have fun! :)
> >
> > hope this helps in some way,
> > cookie
> >
> > >
> > > >I have read articles about potters using slip over metal armitures,
>but
>I
> > > >would like to know if there are any recommendations about what to use
>to
> > > >strengthen a slab. The piece is to be two slab pieces hinged like a
>book
> > >and
> > > >with additional elements. Some of these will support the slab, but I
>am
> > >still
> > > >worried that the clay will not be strong enough. I use nylon fibre
>in
>my
> > > >sculptures but wondered about using wire inserted and fired. I plan
>on
> > > >running some tests this week, but would like to hear if anyone has
> > >experience
> > > >with this.
> > > >
> > > >I did check the Clayart archives, but didn't hit on the right
>combination
> > >of
> > > >words to come up with anything.
> > > >
> > > >Thanks for your help
> > > >Shery in Wyoming
> > >
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________________
>___
> > >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> > >
> > >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> > >
> > >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> > >melpots@pclink.com.
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
> >
> >
>____________________________________________________________________________
>__
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
> >
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________
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cookie davis on tue 11 mar 03
ok--so attachments don't work: to those who want to see the picts, e-mail
me and I'll get them to you...
:) cookie
>From: cookie davis
>Reply-To: Clayart
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: Putting metal/wire in clay for strength
>Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 08:49:45 -0500
>
>Tony,
>Thought I'd post to all who'd be interested...
>I don't have pictures of the "book" forms, but here are some of my wire
>(flat) pedistals (a concept long in development...) with bowls... also a
>detail picture of some small sculptural forms that I've been working on
>which incorporated plain wire...the rest are aluminum screen, chicken wire,
>and fencing materials...
>
>In the past I've also rakued the wire/clay forms and they turn out really
>well...
>
>enjoy...
>cookie
>
>ps in the crisscross picture, you can see how the clay works when the
>fencing is crossed over each other...I've noticed these pieces are quite
>stronger structurally...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: Tony Ferguson
>>Reply-To: Clayart
>>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>Subject: Re: Putting metal/wire in clay for strength
>>Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:36:25 -0600
>>
>>Cookie,
>>
>>Do you have any pictures of your work you could share? I have been getting
>>into some unsual sculpture forms and am curious about yours. I use a lot
>>of
>>grog and fiber and that seems to do the trick in most applications.
>>
>>Thank you.
>>
>>Tony Ferguson
>>On Lake Superior, where the sky meets the Lake
>>
>>Stoneware, Porcelain, Raku and more
>>by Coleman, Ferguson, Winchester...
>>www.aquariusartgallery.com
>>218-727-6339
>>315 N. Lake Ave
>>Apt 312
>>Duluth, MN 55806
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "cookie davis"
>>To:
>>Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 2:18 PM
>>Subject: Re: Putting metal/wire in clay for strength
>>
>>
>> > Greetings!
>> >
>> > I have created several forms which sound like the description below. I
>>have
>> > experimented repeated with various wires/metals and have a few
>>observations
>> > on this sort of form...
>> >
>> > High fired wire will work fine, esp for cone 4. Most others will of
>>course
>> > naturally melt on the piece itself....
>> >
>> > If you're firing to cone 010-06 all will be ok...I buy various types of
>> > metal (wire at various sizes, chicken wire, copper wire, steel wires,
>>gutter
>> > covers, fencing, squared wire sheets etc) from Lowes/Home Depot...
>> > The trick as usual is to be careful with the drying. My forms too are
>>in
>> > "book" shapes, and even are books, but if you dry too rapidly your
>>pieces
>> > will really, really, really crack. So far I've found that an obscenely
>> > loooong drying time helps...mine go for 2-3 weeks average. with
>>plastic
>> > under and over the slabs. If you don't cover them they will crack and
>> > drastically...
>> >
>> > I have a lot of interesting results from working with wire and wire
>> > forms...experiment with the various elements and have fun! :)
>> >
>> > hope this helps in some way,
>> > cookie
>> >
>> > >
>> > > >I have read articles about potters using slip over metal armitures,
>>but
>>I
>> > > >would like to know if there are any recommendations about what to
>>use
>>to
>> > > >strengthen a slab. The piece is to be two slab pieces hinged like a
>>book
>> > >and
>> > > >with additional elements. Some of these will support the slab, but I
>>am
>> > >still
>> > > >worried that the clay will not be strong enough. I use nylon fibre
>>in
>>my
>> > > >sculptures but wondered about using wire inserted and fired. I plan
>>on
>> > > >running some tests this week, but would like to hear if anyone has
>> > >experience
>> > > >with this.
>> > > >
>> > > >I did check the Clayart archives, but didn't hit on the right
>>combination
>> > >of
>> > > >words to come up with anything.
>> > > >
>> > > >Thanks for your help
>> > > >Shery in Wyoming
>> > >
>> >
>> >___________________________________________________________________________
>>___
>> > >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>> > >
>> > >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> > >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>> > >
>> > >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>> > >melpots@pclink.com.
>> >
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
>> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>> >
>> >
>>____________________________________________________________________________
>>__
>> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>> >
>> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>> >
>> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>>melpots@pclink.com.
>> >
>>
>>______________________________________________________________________________
>>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
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>______________________________________________________________________________
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>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
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Valice Raffi on wed 12 mar 03
Sheryl,
I don't think that aluminum screen will work at ^2. I fired it at ^06 as a
support for slip impregnated cheese cloth and parts of the screen melted.
It was actually pretty cool, droplets like beads formed in the spaces of
the cheese cloth, but they came off pretty easily.
Valice
in Sacramento
>Opps!! Should have mentioned that I fire CT-3 clay to cone 2.
>As Cheryl Litman (thanks Cheryl) pointed out, that might make a
>difference.
>I think I may go out and see if I can find some aluminum screen and try it.
>Mostly, I'm worried about the piece cracking because it shrinks and the metal
>doesn't. Well, then, I'm also worried about it melting through and not
>helping with strength at all.
>Sheryl in Wyoming
iandol on wed 12 mar 03
Dear Vince,=20
I could hardly believe my eyes as I read this in your posting <wire will not work at all, nor will brass or copper at cone 2, because =
they will dissociate to their component oxides long before cone 2.>>
All I can think is that you must have had a very heavy day and an even =
worse evening. Agreed, the metals named will oxidise at Cone 2, =
Aluminium after melting at 660=B0 C and Brass melting round about 800=B0 =
C. I suppose that is what you intended to say?
One thing which would worry me would be the differential between the =
Coefficients of Linear Expansion of none oxidising metals and clay =
before it is mature as well as during cooling.=20
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
m markey on thu 13 mar 03
Hi Sheri!
Unless your slabs are to be lo-fired or raku'ed, putting wire armatures or
even screen material in your slabs probably won't help you. Most metals melt
at high-fire temperatures, and may disintegrate, making a big mess in the
kiln.
I suggest using thicker slabs, drying them slowly, and high-firing slowly,
or perhaps considering low-fire clay with the wire supports.
Best wishes!
Mohabee NakedClay@hotmail.com
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