Ric Swenson on fri 18 oct 02
actually THAT is the OTHER theory of how man/woman first learned about clay and making it permanent by firing it. I believe the theory of the burnt basket came about because archeologists have found numerous examples of very early clay pottery shards with the basket texture evident.
Any body out there take archeology in school?
Pottery...this was prior to bronze age... and after the 'neighborhood barbeque' was first invented.
:)
Ric Swenson
TGIF
vince pitelka on sun 20 oct 02
> actually THAT is the OTHER theory of how man/woman first learned about
clay and making it permanent by firing it. I believe the theory of the
burnt basket came about because archeologists have found numerous examples
of very early clay pottery shards with the basket texture evident.
Ric -
There is ample evidence that basketry preceded clay vessel production almost
everywhere. Clay vessels just wouldn't work for nomadic Paleolithic
hunter-gatherers, but baskets would be sturdy and portable. So, once people
were settling in farms and villages during the early Neolithic period, it is
natural that they would imitate basket patterns, and that they would press
woven materials into the surface of the clay. "Corded" surfaces and
slip-painted basket patterns are among the very earliest of surface
decoration in almost every culture. I see nothing at all connected with
this that could support the "burnt basket theory." As others have agreed, I
give early humans a lot more credit than that.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
vince pitelka on mon 21 oct 02
> Nope, professional archaeologists have no more definitive answers than I
> have seen here. In fact, most archaeological theories have no basis in
> actual fact; that is, nobody's ever bothered to test them and see if you
> can, in fact, do it that way.
Rob -
Your post is filled with fascinating information and conjecture, and I
appreciate that, but there is a fundamental problem with your scenario.
First, there is no such thing as a Paleolithic farmer, because the
Paleolithic was the Old Stone Age, characterized by hunter-gatherers. It
was the transition to a stable farming and herding, and a stationary village
way of life that defines the transition from the Paleolithic to the
Neolithic, and of course it happened at different times in different parts
of the world when that transition occurred in each area. But it happened
long after the discovery of fired clay.
Paleolithic peoples mastered the use of fire for cooking food and for
warming themselves in cold weather. They also modeled figurines and amulets
from clay, and fired them in their bonfires. The question here revolves
around how Paleolithic hunter-gatherers discovered the firing process, so it
has nothing to do with settled Neolithic farmers and the making of bricks.
Someone else suggested a possible scenario - the idea that clay figurines or
amulets were dropped in the fire as part of a ritual, and that the fired
results were discovered among the ashes. That is certainly a possibility,
but I still think the more likely scenario, and one which inevitably would
have occurred in every culture that mastered the use of fire, is the clay
hearth. As has been pointed out in several posts, we probably give early
humans too little credit for having the intelligence to figure out such
simple and obvious cause-and-effect relationships. If you think them as
sentient beings, observing their surroundings, processing information, then
it becomes difficult to think they could overlook something so critically
important.
Anyone who has ever built a bonfire on earth that contained tight clots of
dirt has seen the effects of firing on those clots. And anyone who has any
experience with tight clots of dirt knows that when they are wet they are
sticky and malleable. A little simple cause-and-effect logic, and all of a
sudden people are forming figurines and amulets and firing them in bonfires.
I really don't want to sound smug with my theory here, but I have thought
about this a great deal, and it is hard for me to imagine that any group of
Paleolithic hunter-gatherers capable of building a fire to warm themselves
and cook their meat could have avoided this discovery. The fact that the
firing process was discovered independently by Paleolithic peoples in many
different parts of the world would seem to indicate a fairly obvious and
predictable means of discovery. I think the clay hearth is the only
scenario that makes any sense at all.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Rob Van Rens on mon 21 oct 02
Or, why beer is responsible for pottery.
Okay, I must here interject.
Yes, I did take archaeology in school. Got a degree in it, in fact.
Nope, professional archaeologists have no more definitive answers than I
have seen here. In fact, most archaeological theories have no basis in
actual fact; that is, nobody's ever bothered to test them and see if you
can, in fact, do it that way.
My speciality was experimental archaeology. All that we do is test theories
of design and construction. I can flake stone tools, dig and fire "wild"
clay, smelt and work a variety of metals, hand-twist fibers, card, spin, and
weave same, thatch a roof, work stone with only tools also made of stone, on
and on and on and on. What we have discovered is that many assumptions of
how technologies were developed are wrong; you can't get A from B.
I don't buy the Burnt Basket theory; it doesn't make sense. Why on earth
would you line a basket with clay? It's heavy and difficult to carry, the
dried clay breaks if the basket flexes, it's not remotely waterproof, etc
etc. If you need to carry very small things, like grain, you weave a
tighter basket (the stalks of wild grasses, predeccessors to cereal grains,
make excellent tightly woven baskets that will hold even flour with no
difficulty), or use a bag made of hide, etc.
I suspect that we are engaging in a fallacy here regarding the "accidental"
discovery of ceramic technology. What is more likely, to my mind and the
minds of many former colleagues, is that someone noticed that as it dries,
certain types of mud become very hard. They then make useful materials like
mud brick. Now, I'm a paleolithic farmer, all of my tools (which are few)
are made from materials that occur naturally in my local environment, and
are manufactured with a tremendous investment in time, money, or both. I
need some mud bricks for some purpose, and I need them now. I know that
fire dries things out quickly, so what happens if I put the mud bricks near
the fire? They dry out quickly. Now, what happens if I put the mud (clay)
IN the fire? It dries out even more. Now, keep in mind, I understnad the
application of slow steady heat, because many of the stone types I use for
tools benefit from same. Wow, that mud got really hard. Now, suppose I
build a great big-a###d fire that burns really hot? Well, after catching
the thatched roof on fire and burning anything vaguely flammable in the hut,
I remove the bricks from the ashes. Ah-HA! I have invented bricks! I
shall call them...Stones I Made Myself, In a More Usefule Shape Than
Normally Occurs! Maybe I can make stones in More Useful Shapes! Ha-Ha!
I'll be rich! Now I can afford that goat-skin hat I've been looking at!
Maybe even some naturally fermented grain alchohol!
Anyway, you get the idea. The "discovery" of ceramic technology was
probably not completely accidental, but it was probably not completely on
purpose either. And it took time to develop. And it seems to have occurred
around the time of the development of cereal-grain based agriculture, which
is now beleived to have been developed because of the accidental discovery
of the most important thing ever developed by human hands...
Beer. Which is now beleived to predate bread by at least a few thousand
years.
I don't present myself as an expert on this topic, just more widely
researched than most people.
Robert Van Rens, Workshop Coordinator
Otto Kroeger Associates
703-591-6284, x110 Phone
703-591-8338 Fax
www.typetalk.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Ric Swenson [mailto:RicSwenson0823@AOL.COM]
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 6:19 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: burnt basket theory vs riverbed campfire BBQ
actually THAT is the OTHER theory of how man/woman first learned about clay
and making it permanent by firing it. I believe the theory of the burnt
basket came about because archeologists have found numerous examples of very
early clay pottery shards with the basket texture evident.
Any body out there take archeology in school?
Pottery...this was prior to bronze age... and after the 'neighborhood
barbeque' was first invented.
:)
Ric Swenson
TGIF
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Michael Wendt on mon 21 oct 02
I have worked with a basket weaver/potter (Joan Beamish) since 1981.
Even her simple baskets take a lot longer to make than any pot so it is
improbable that baskets were used as burn away molds for clay vessels. I do
believe they were employed as reusable molds because we have used them that
way here. Imagine you are semi nomadic. Pottery gets dumped when you move on
but the light, durable baskets go with you. At the next locale where there
is clay, you quickly smear the inside of your basket mold with clay and as
it shrinks, it pulls away. In a few hours with little effort many useful
articles can be made which serve your purpose at the new location without
the need to haul heavy pots or weave new molds. For closed forms, half
baskets or parts thereof would work fine as molds. Once people needed to
store food, pottery proved superior in some ways: mice and insects can't get
in; dust and moisture are excluded; sunlight doesn't get in... etc.
No one will ever know for sure but if you have a small drafted form basket
(one that gets wider at the top), try making a small tray in it and see how
fast and easy it is. Smear the inside of the basket with bear grease or
aurochs tallow and voila, the clay shapes pop out easily.
Enough?
Regards,
Michael Wendt wendtpot@lewiston.com
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Avenue
Lewiston, Idaho 83501
1-208-746-3724
wendtpottery.com
Rob Van Rens on mon 21 oct 02
ERROR SPOTTED!!!
That should be
"a tremendous amount of time, EFFORT, or both". Money is a modern concept,
too new for us to have even grown accustomed to its existence.
Sorry. Should edit better BEFORE I send.
Robert Van Rens, Workshop Coordinator
Otto Kroeger Associates
703-591-6284, x110 Phone
703-591-8338 Fax
www.typetalk.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Van Rens [mailto:rvanrens@TYPETALK.COM]
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 10:30 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: burnt basket theory vs riverbed campfire BBQ
Or, why beer is responsible for pottery.
Okay, I must here interject.
Yes, I did take archaeology in school. Got a degree in it, in fact.
Nope, professional archaeologists have no more definitive answers than I
have seen here. In fact, most archaeological theories have no basis in
actual fact; that is, nobody's ever bothered to test them and see if you
can, in fact, do it that way.
My speciality was experimental archaeology. All that we do is test theories
of design and construction. I can flake stone tools, dig and fire "wild"
clay, smelt and work a variety of metals, hand-twist fibers, card, spin, and
weave same, thatch a roof, work stone with only tools also made of stone, on
and on and on and on. What we have discovered is that many assumptions of
how technologies were developed are wrong; you can't get A from B.
I don't buy the Burnt Basket theory; it doesn't make sense. Why on earth
would you line a basket with clay? It's heavy and difficult to carry, the
dried clay breaks if the basket flexes, it's not remotely waterproof, etc
etc. If you need to carry very small things, like grain, you weave a
tighter basket (the stalks of wild grasses, predeccessors to cereal grains,
make excellent tightly woven baskets that will hold even flour with no
difficulty), or use a bag made of hide, etc.
I suspect that we are engaging in a fallacy here regarding the "accidental"
discovery of ceramic technology. What is more likely, to my mind and the
minds of many former colleagues, is that someone noticed that as it dries,
certain types of mud become very hard. They then make useful materials like
mud brick. Now, I'm a paleolithic farmer, all of my tools (which are few)
are made from materials that occur naturally in my local environment, and
are manufactured with a tremendous investment in time, money, or both. I
need some mud bricks for some purpose, and I need them now. I know that
fire dries things out quickly, so what happens if I put the mud bricks near
the fire? They dry out quickly. Now, what happens if I put the mud (clay)
IN the fire? It dries out even more. Now, keep in mind, I understnad the
application of slow steady heat, because many of the stone types I use for
tools benefit from same. Wow, that mud got really hard. Now, suppose I
build a great big-a###d fire that burns really hot? Well, after catching
the thatched roof on fire and burning anything vaguely flammable in the hut,
I remove the bricks from the ashes. Ah-HA! I have invented bricks! I
shall call them...Stones I Made Myself, In a More Usefule Shape Than
Normally Occurs! Maybe I can make stones in More Useful Shapes! Ha-Ha!
I'll be rich! Now I can afford that goat-skin hat I've been looking at!
Maybe even some naturally fermented grain alchohol!
Anyway, you get the idea. The "discovery" of ceramic technology was
probably not completely accidental, but it was probably not completely on
purpose either. And it took time to develop. And it seems to have occurred
around the time of the development of cereal-grain based agriculture, which
is now beleived to have been developed because of the accidental discovery
of the most important thing ever developed by human hands...
Beer. Which is now beleived to predate bread by at least a few thousand
years.
I don't present myself as an expert on this topic, just more widely
researched than most people.
Robert Van Rens, Workshop Coordinator
Otto Kroeger Associates
703-591-6284, x110 Phone
703-591-8338 Fax
www.typetalk.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Ric Swenson [mailto:RicSwenson0823@AOL.COM]
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 6:19 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: burnt basket theory vs riverbed campfire BBQ
actually THAT is the OTHER theory of how man/woman first learned about clay
and making it permanent by firing it. I believe the theory of the burnt
basket came about because archeologists have found numerous examples of very
early clay pottery shards with the basket texture evident.
Any body out there take archeology in school?
Pottery...this was prior to bronze age... and after the 'neighborhood
barbeque' was first invented.
:)
Ric Swenson
TGIF
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Tommy Humphries on mon 21 oct 02
Several years ago, me and a buddy and his three young kids were camping on
his dads farm alongside a moderate sized creek. as me and my buddy were
kicked back fishin and drinking some of the most important stuff invented by
human hands, the kids were digging in the bank of the creek.
Soon we started hearing "pop pop bang pop" and looked to see that the kids
were throwing small wads of clay into the fire, which promptly exploded,
making a swell game for the kids, the oldest of which was 5, none of them
had a trace of ceramics knowledge.
The next morning, among the ashes were several nice red marbles, which had
miraculously survived their trial by fire. I fished these out and gave them
to the kids explaining in simple terms what had happened...
I can see this happening in ages past...the kids getting creative and
tossing figures into the fire...some of them would remember and as they got
older refining the technique to the point where they were making the "mamut"
figures so famous now...
Hey, it could happen that way!
Tommy
| |
|
