Llewellyn Kouba on sun 2 sep 01
I have never done a commission dinner set but have a lady who said she got
price quotes for a 30 piece set for like $500.00. I don't think it is
realistic. (7 1/2 inch plate - 10 inch plate - 6 inch cylinder cup- 5 to 6
inch bowl) six of everything plus two casseroles plus salt & pepper etc.
and she insists that I am going to do this for her because she honestly
does love my work to pieces and has sort of become a friend in that she is
a fellow potter and also God told her I am the one etc. Just very hesitant
to take this project on. I know I am qualified and would come up to
pleasing things but the money seems way too low. What would you charge for
a 30 piece dinner set in stoneware with porcelain slip added to the
pieces....? So many variables, feeling like I am giving them away on the
one hand, do as a favor on the other...Can I afford the time etc. charity?
Friendships...etc. and confused from this one.
Llewellyn
Diane Echlin on sun 2 sep 01
In the words of Monty Python in Search for the Holy Grail...."Run away!
Run Away!"
If she is indeed a potter, she should know that a set like that will
cost more. For crying out loud, low end Noritake is almost twice that!
Trust your instincts and either price it right or don't do it. And
re-read the recent posts on doing commission work! ;-)
Diane in CT
Llewellyn Kouba wrote:
>
>and also God told her I am the one etc.
>
Karen Sullivan on sun 2 sep 01
LLewelly....
Do the math...
10 inch plate 30x6 180
71/2 25x6 150
cups 10x6 60
bowl 15x6 90
I figure 480
what you make extra to make sure you have a set
can be sold separately...
So perhaps you get more for each piece...figure it out
and get a total you are happy with...
justify the extra expense with the need to make extra
of each piece to insure a set...justification
for the extra labor...not just a clean 6 of each, thanks.
I did a dinner ware set, which resulted in three
sets...the others I sold separately.
Gave them an option of what to choose, always makes
them happy.
bamboo karen
on 9/2/01 1:52 PM, Llewellyn Kouba at lkouba@POP.CTCTEL.COM wrote:
> I have never done a commission dinner set but have a lady who said she got
> price quotes for a 30 piece set for like $500.00. I don't think it is
> realistic. (7 1/2 inch plate - 10 inch plate - 6 inch cylinder cup- 5 to 6
> inch bowl) six of everything plus two casseroles plus salt & pepper etc.
> and she insists that I am going to do this for her because she honestly
> does love my work to pieces and has sort of become a friend in that she is
> a fellow potter and also God told her I am the one etc. Just very hesitant
> to take this project on. I know I am qualified and would come up to
> pleasing things but the money seems way too low. What would you charge for
> a 30 piece dinner set in stoneware with porcelain slip added to the
> pieces....? So many variables, feeling like I am giving them away on the
> one hand, do as a favor on the other...Can I afford the time etc. charity?
> Friendships...etc. and confused from this one.
>
> Llewellyn
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
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Earl Brunner on sun 2 sep 01
For 30 pieces that works out about 16 bucks per piece.
This sounds like a losing situation.
Any time someone else tells you what God has in mind for you it should
be suspect. Heck, my daughter had a guy tell her God told him she was
supposed to marry him. She told him she could get her own answers from God.
I mean no disrespect, but tell her God can help her pay you what it will
be worth. If it is really God's will.
At least 100 bucks per place setting and extra for the extra.
Dinnerware shouldn't be subject to a quantity discount. It should
actually cost more, reflecting the skill and effort of making everything
match. Then things get fired in the kiln and different parts of the kiln
affect the pieces differently.
Get most of the money up front.
Llewellyn Kouba wrote:
> I have never done a commission dinner set but have a lady who said she got
> price quotes for a 30 piece set for like $500.00. I don't think it is
> realistic. (7 1/2 inch plate - 10 inch plate - 6 inch cylinder cup- 5 to 6
> inch bowl) six of everything plus two casseroles plus salt & pepper etc.
> and she insists that I am going to do this for her because she honestly
> does love my work to pieces and has sort of become a friend in that she is
> a fellow potter and also God told her I am the one etc. Just very hesitant
> to take this project on. I know I am qualified and would come up to
> pleasing things but the money seems way too low. What would you charge for
> a 30 piece dinner set in stoneware with porcelain slip added to the
> pieces....? So many variables, feeling like I am giving them away on the
> one hand, do as a favor on the other...Can I afford the time etc. charity?
> Friendships...etc. and confused from this one.
>
> Llewellyn
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
--
Earl Brunner
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
bruec@anv.net
Cat Jarosz on sun 2 sep 01
Llewellen... ouch that sounds like a bad deal for you ... she is
basically asking you to wholesale .... WHO quoted that price to her ??? If
you dont feel comfortable with your own prices who will??? I have
never gone into a grocery store and asked the checker to give me a better
price on radishes or any of the food I get even though I know the mark up is
over double on lots of items.. I dont go to Sam's club or the mall and
ask the checkers to cut me a deal or to sell me their stuff wholesale
soooo why do some folks think its ok to ask Artists these ??? In
your email it didnt sound like you did functional pottery for a living so
I dont know what advise to give you as far as pricing your work but I sure
would not lose my shirt for this person who sounds like she may be bossy
, pushy and hard to please... email me if you want ... Cat...... cat81257@
aol.com
KLeSueur@AOL.COM on sun 2 sep 01
I'd run like hell from this one. First, for what she wants the price is too
low. I charge $70 for a five piece place setting. It comes in one glaze, one
style (slab). I refuse to deviate. Accessory pieces are charged at their
regular retail rate. I DO NOT give discounts for quantity. The bigger the
quantity, the harder the order is to do.
If you are not doing dinnerware on a regular basis you are going to loose
money on this one. It is not that easy to make plates and bowls that are all
the same size and shape. And if they aren't, they won't stack properly.
You're customer will not be happy. You'll have to make extra pieces of every
size to make sure you have enough first quality. You're glazing sounds like
it might have a lot of variability. People love this........ until it comes
to dinnerware. Then they want it all to match. If she breaks a piece you'll
spend months trying to make a piece to match it.
Even though you're "the one", the best potter she's ever known, her "friend",
and all of those other compliments that make us do things we know we
shouldn't........... don't. You'll be sorry if you do.
Been there, done that.
Kathi LeSueur
Ann Arbor, Mi
Jean Cochran on sun 2 sep 01
Dear Llewellyn,
Sounds like a $1,500 to $2,000 set of dishes with a pain in the double
arse for a customer. Just my two cents worth. The only reason to do
this would be if you would do it for free just for the practice. Of
course if you were going to do it for free you might wish to keep it
yourself or give it to someone you love better than this prospective
customer. If I took a commission like this, I would feel like I was
shooting myself (and my fellow crafters) in the leg.
By the way, I charge MORE per piece in a set, not less per piece.
Good luck,
Jean Wadsworth Cochran
Fox Hollow Pottery
New Haven, Kentucky
vince pitelka on sun 2 sep 01
> I have never done a commission dinner set but have a lady who said she got
> price quotes for a 30 piece set for like $500.00. I don't think it is
> realistic. (7 1/2 inch plate - 10 inch plate - 6 inch cylinder cup- 5 to
6
> inch bowl) six of everything plus two casseroles plus salt & pepper etc.
> and she insists that I am going to do this for her because she honestly
> does love my work to pieces and has sort of become a friend in that she is
> a fellow potter and also God told her I am the one etc.
Llewellyn -
If you take this on, you will be working for less than minimum wage, and you
deserve better. Customers often assume that since a dinnerware set involves
multiples, there should be a price break, as is often the case with
machine-made products. In fact, the opposite is true. For a studio potter,
it is much more difficult to make matching sets of plates, bowls, cups, etc.
And of course all the sets have to match each other in color, texture, and
detail in order to make a dinnerware set. It is a very big job, and you
must make plenty of extras to ensure the six place-settings. Many potters
require that the customer buy ALL the pieces that turn out well. I never
did that, because I always knew I could sell the extras at my studio sales,
but I always gave the customer the option to buy the extras, with the
warning that additional pieces made later might not be a close match, due to
the changes in materials and process over time.
Figure out the price you would accept for each piece when sold as idividual
items, and just multiply that by the number of pieces ordered to come up
with a total price. That will still be a good deal, because many potters
add a significant surcharge over normal price when a matching set is
ordered. Explain that the the buyer. No one can expect you to loose money
on the deal.
Good luck -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Just very hesitant
> to take this project on. I know I am qualified and would come up to
> pleasing things but the money seems way too low. What would you charge
for
> a 30 piece dinner set in stoneware with porcelain slip added to the
> pieces....? So many variables, feeling like I am giving them away on the
> one hand, do as a favor on the other...Can I afford the time etc. charity?
> Friendships...etc. and confused from this one.
>
> Llewellyn
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
L. P. Skeen on sun 2 sep 01
Llewellyn,
Most people I've ever heard of charge per place setting. I personally
charge $75/place setting that includes dinner plate, salad plate, bowl and
drinking vessel. If they want additional pieces, they are priced
individually, ie: I charge $18/set for s/p shakers, $50 for large casserole
dishes, etc.
Don't sell yourself short. If the other person is a potter, she will
understand and not complain about your pricing. If she REALLY wants you to
do it, she'll pay what you ask. :)
Good luck
L
----- Original Message -----
From: Llewellyn Kouba
To:
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 4:52 PM
Subject: Price a dinner set
> I have never done a commission dinner set but have a lady who said she got
> price quotes for a 30 piece set for like $500.00. I don't think it is
> realistic. (7 1/2 inch plate - 10 inch plate - 6 inch cylinder cup- 5 to
6
> inch bowl) six of everything plus two casseroles plus salt & pepper etc.
> and she insists that I am going to do this for her because she honestly
> does love my work to pieces and has sort of become a friend in that she is
> a fellow potter and also God told her I am the one etc. Just very
hesitant
> to take this project on. I know I am qualified and would come up to
> pleasing things but the money seems way too low. What would you charge
for
> a 30 piece dinner set in stoneware with porcelain slip added to the
> pieces....? So many variables, feeling like I am giving them away on the
> one hand, do as a favor on the other...Can I afford the time etc. charity?
> Friendships...etc. and confused from this one.
>
> Llewellyn
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Wade Blocker on sun 2 sep 01
Llewellin,
Have you read Mel's letter regarding commissions? He keeps a 2 x4 with a
nail in it. His wife is to use it on him if he accepts a commission.
I have a broomstick with which my husband is supposed to beat me if I ever
accept a commission. Mia in ABQ
John Baymore on mon 3 sep 01
I have never done a commission dinner set but have a lady who said she go=
t
price quotes for a 30 piece set for like $500.00. I don't think it is
realistic. (7 1/2 inch plate - 10 inch plate - 6 inch cylinder cup- 5 to=
6
inch bowl) six of everything plus two casseroles plus salt & pepper etc.
and she insists that I am going to do this for her because she honestly
does love my work to pieces and has sort of become a friend in that she i=
s
a fellow potter and also God told her I am the one etc. =
=
Llewellyn,
Just got back from Maine and catching up on a real pile of messages and s=
aw
this one ..................
I guess God is selling your stuff cheap!!!!!! Wow....... even God
undervalues claywork! You need a better agent .
Seriously......... if this is a good friend (which I sense from the posti=
ng
she is not) and you want to give her a heck of a nice gift .......... we=
ll
that is your business. But...... don't feel pressured into such
things...... if you don't value your work....then who will? If she IS a
friend she will understand that you just can't afford to do that for such=
a
low price. If she is a potter....then she of ALL people should understan=
d
the work that goes into such an undertaking. Sets are even harder than
single "one off" pieces.
If the price is a prime determinant... then she doesn't REALLY love your
work to all THAT many pieces .
And.... yes it would not surprise me that she DID get quotes that low. =
There are potters out there selling that have no idea about pricing or wh=
at
their time is worth or whether they are actually even making any money. =
Go to a good department store and look at commercial dinnerware prices fo=
r
GOOD stoneware and porcelain pieces. I bet you'll be surprised. More
handcraft potters should do that. It will give you a context into which
you can start to place prices for more handcrafted work.
Good luck.
Best,
.............................john
PS: Depending on the type of process (complexity) used to finish it.....=
.
I sell a thrown dinner-sized plate from $40 - $90.
PPS: I'd love to own a Volkous stack....... hum.......... maybe if I tel=
l
him that I just LOVE his stuff whole bunches....and............. say....h=
ow
bout a hunderd bucks........... Oops.....woke up .
John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA
603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)
JohnBaymore.com
JBaymore@compuserve.com
John.Baymore@GSD-CO.com
"Earth, Water, and Fire Noborigama Woodfiring Workshop August 17-26,
2001"
Cindy Griffis on mon 3 sep 01
Llewellyn,
With friends like this, who needs enemies????
Since she's a potter too, how about you each do a set, and
exchange??????
I vote for the Monty Python quote, "Run away! Run away!"
Regards,
Cindy Griffis
--- Llewellyn Kouba wrote:
> I have never done a commission dinner set but have a lady who said
> she got
> price quotes for a 30 piece set for like $500.00. I don't think it
> is
> realistic. (7 1/2 inch plate - 10 inch plate - 6 inch cylinder
> cup- 5 to 6
> inch bowl) six of everything plus two casseroles plus salt & pepper
> etc.
> and she insists that I am going to do this for her because she
> honestly
> does love my work to pieces and has sort of become a friend in that
> she is
> a fellow potter and also God told her I am the one etc. Just very
> hesitant
> to take this project on. I know I am qualified and would come up
> to
> pleasing things but the money seems way too low. What would you
> charge for
> a 30 piece dinner set in stoneware with porcelain slip added to the
> pieces....? So many variables, feeling like I am giving them away
> on the
> one hand, do as a favor on the other...Can I afford the time etc.
> charity?
> Friendships...etc. and confused from this one.
>
> Llewellyn
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your
> subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
__________________________________________________
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Janet Kaiser on mon 3 sep 01
$500 for a 30 piece dinner service? Or $17 or so
average per item including casseroles, etc.? I guess
that would at a pinch be just about possible for a huge
production pottery which churns out a great deal of
work and have oodles in stock, but for a one-off
commission? I agree that is not going to be in your
interest. Stoneware and porcelain? Definitely not. And
do not forget that one order leads to another and how
are you going to react to non-friends/admirers wanting
your work for a ridiculously low price?
I would print out and give the lady a list of prices
for the various individual items, adding all sorts she
has not "ordered". You probably have seen these lists
next to the manufactured ceramics from Rosenthal,
Wedgwood and the likes in the big department stores. It
does not look too bad in single units, but they do that
so people do not have a heart attack when they see the
end price of a whole service!! :-)
A price list may be the most tactful way of impressing
the total cost of such an order and she could possibly
reduce the number and scope to fit her budget. Just
beware she orders half a set this year and the other
half next year because she will expect exact matching
of size, shape, glaze, etc. and it makes people very
cross indeed when it turns out that is difficult for
the studio potter to achieve. It is also an irritation
to the maker, especially if one has changed clay/glaze
or moved on to different shapes and forms.
But let's face it, if someone can afford to commission
and is prepared to pay any Tom, Dick or Harry $500,
then double that or more is not too much for very
special work which she says she just loves... I
actually get extremely cross with this type of
person... Scrabbling around for the cheapest quotation
they can find and then going along to a fine potter and
expecting the works for pennies. It may just be my
wicked mind in this case Llewellyn, but beware of false
friends. True friends will be prepared to pay a
premium!
Ugh! I just read your post again... This person is a
potter? Jeez! She should be ashamed of herself! Don't
you start feeling guilty about wanting a reasonable
price for your work just because this is a "friend".
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
----- Original Message -----
> I have never done a commission dinner set but have a
lady who said she got
> price quotes for a 30 piece set for like $500.00. I
don't think it is
> realistic. (7 1/2 inch plate - 10 inch plate - 6
inch cylinder cup- 5 to 6
> inch bowl) six of everything plus two casseroles plus
salt & pepper etc.
> and she insists that I am going to do this for her
because she honestly
> does love my work to pieces and has sort of become a
friend in that she is
> a fellow potter and also God told her I am the one
etc. Just very hesitant
> to take this project on. I know I am qualified and
would come up to
> pleasing things but the money seems way too low.
What would you charge for
> a 30 piece dinner set in stoneware with porcelain
slip added to the
> pieces....? So many variables, feeling like I am
giving them away on the
> one hand, do as a favor on the other...Can I afford
the time etc. charity?
> Friendships...etc. and confused from this one.
>
> Llewellyn
Llewellyn Kouba on tue 4 sep 01
Dear Earl,
I have received so many responses 'of all kinds' and really appreciate the
input. A new twist since my first letter has been that the lady now gave
me a check for $1500.00. I guess that might still be a loosing battle at
30 pieces that comes to 50 dollars for each item. Might not be a bad price
for a salt and pepper shaker but way low for the large bowls and covered
casseroles. Still not certain whether I will take the job? A lot of it
also boils down to if you need the business 'money' or not. I won't rush
into anything and if I do I will likely do cash up front...and just knowing
me I'd throw in something like a large vase or a large serving
platter. Guess I am a no win potter.? No go yes or no on this one yet.
Llewellyn
At 05:24 PM 9/2/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>For 30 pieces that works out about 16 bucks per piece.
>This sounds like a losing situation.
>Any time someone else tells you what God has in mind for you it should
>be suspect. Heck, my daughter had a guy tell her God told him she was
>supposed to marry him. She told him she could get her own answers from God.
>I mean no disrespect, but tell her God can help her pay you what it will
>be worth. If it is really God's will.
>At least 100 bucks per place setting and extra for the extra.
>Dinnerware shouldn't be subject to a quantity discount. It should
>actually cost more, reflecting the skill and effort of making everything
>match. Then things get fired in the kiln and different parts of the kiln
>affect the pieces differently.
>
>Get most of the money up front.
>
>Llewellyn Kouba wrote:
>
>>I have never done a commission dinner set but have a lady who said she got
>>price quotes for a 30 piece set for like $500.00. I don't think it is
>>realistic. (7 1/2 inch plate - 10 inch plate - 6 inch cylinder cup- 5 to 6
>>inch bowl) six of everything plus two casseroles plus salt & pepper etc.
>>and she insists that I am going to do this for her because she honestly
>>does love my work to pieces and has sort of become a friend in that she is
>>a fellow potter and also God told her I am the one etc. Just very hesitant
>>to take this project on. I know I am qualified and would come up to
>>pleasing things but the money seems way too low. What would you charge for
>>a 30 piece dinner set in stoneware with porcelain slip added to the
>>pieces....? So many variables, feeling like I am giving them away on the
>>one hand, do as a favor on the other...Can I afford the time etc. charity?
>>Friendships...etc. and confused from this one.
>>
>>Llewellyn
>>
>>______________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>>melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>--
>Earl Brunner
>http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec/
>bruec@anv.net
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
Kit Shannon on tue 4 sep 01
I just finished making a dinner set for a "friend". I'd never
made a whole set and had to come up with the whole design for the
set etc. I still consider myself a student potter so I didn't
feel bad about how much I made on the whole thing, but he got a
hell of a deal. I worked on this part time so it was easier to
do it in pieces and give him things as they were finished... I
sold each piece for $20 each, so a place setting was $80. Not a
bad price except these were very involved forms fired in a
woodkiln. It took me over a year to finally finish the whole
thing...
It was worth it even if I didn't make enough money on the deal.
I learned a lot about making sets and a lot more about how to
deal with commissions in the future. I'm glad I did it but I
wouldn't do the same thing again...
So if you want to look at it as a learning process, I would do
it. But if time and money are tight I would as for at least $100
dollars a place setting...
good luck,
kit
Debbie Smith on tue 4 sep 01
My work consist of only functional dish sets. I sell wholesale to stores and
retail at home. If the order is over $600, I give a 20% discount. A 10"
dinner plate retails for $30, salad plate $24, cereal bowl $16, and mug $16.
I always have to make 2 extra pieces of each item, this saves time in the
long run, if something doesn't do well in the firing the extra pieces are
there so that I can get the order completed in a six week time frame.
Hope this helps, Debbie
Russel Fouts on tue 4 sep 01
Janet,
>> Having just read the prices quoted from potters in the USA, I must admit that they all seem to be on the low side compared to the UK. Substitute pounds sterling for the $$$ and that would be more like what you would expect to pay here. As I believe the US$ is currently around 1.6 to the pound, that would be half as much again or $15 to $16 for every $10 quoted. Either that,
or you are all being conservative and/or shy about stating your pricing.
<<
This has been my experience as well. Prices for pots in the States are
usually quite a bit lower than prices for the same kind and level of
pots on the continent.
Makes for heavy luggage on the return trip.
Russel (more shelves!!) Fouts
--
Russel Fouts
Mes Potes & Mes Pots
Brussels, Belgium
Tel: +32 2 223 02 75
Mobile: +32 476 55 38 75
Http://www.mypots.com
http://www.Japan-Net.ne.jp/~iwcat
"There is a theory which states that
if ever anyone discovers exactly what
the universe is for and why it's here,
it will instantly disappear and be
replaced by something even more bizzarly
inexplicable."
"There is another theory which states
that this has already happened!"
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