Cliff on wed 25 jul 01
I would like to hear from anyone who has had trouble with advancer
shelves exploding. Although the shelves look completely vitrified and
water beads off the surface when left out in the rain, the Advancers
have a small 1% absorption factor in their crystalline structure which
seems to make them susceptible to exploding when wet.
Hank Murrow on mon 24 dec 01
Lee wrote;
>santa was very nice to me a gave me advancer shelves. don't need kiln wash .
>really light. galze wont stick. couldnt wait to fire. BUT they look like the
>glazed surface has been rubbed off in shippinf and when i fired a few of
>them, most of my porcelain pieces stuck, breaking the foot. also a glaze drip
>does not come off and looks like it has foamed up and become part of the
>shelf. i did not put kiln wash on these shelves. they were fired to cone 10
>in reduction not salt. are these shelves as defective as i think they are? or
>have they been over hyped and my expectations were too high?
>
>your input before i try to return them would be greatly appreciated.
>thanks
Dear Lee;
My experience with the Advancers and the Crystar shelves has been
benign. Two from the original Crystar set broke in two, since then, no
trouble at all. I use powdered alumina oxide (100 mesh) dusted on the
shelves to act like tiny ball bearings, allowing the shrinkage to take
place without sticking. My experience tells me to never use kiln wash with
these. "Your mileage may vary". I should add that I have not tried the ITC
coatings yet. I do a LOT of plates, and so far the shelves are die-flat
after 200+ fires on them.
Good Pleading, Hank in Eugene
Lee Marshall on mon 24 dec 01
santa was very nice to me a gave me advancer shelves. don't need kiln wash .
really light. galze wont stick. couldnt wait to fire. BUT they look like the
glazed surface has been rubbed off in shippinf and when i fired a few of
them, most of my porcelain pieces stuck, breaking the foot. also a glaze drip
does not come off and looks like it has foamed up and become part of the
shelf. i did not put kiln wash on these shelves. they were fired to cone 10
in reduction not salt. are these shelves as defective as i think they are? or
have they been over hyped and my expectations were too high?
your input before i try to return them would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
lee
lee marshall
lmarsh1220@aol.com
615-286-1264
Nick Zappa on tue 25 dec 01
Have to agree with Jonathan. We use the acme marls shelves as well and they
are durable and cost efficient. Great product. Nick Zappa
Zappa Pottery & Gallery Inc.
18800 P-61 Trail
Montrose CO. 81401
www.zappapottery.com
info@zappapottery.com
970.249.6819 Studio
970.252.0303 Gallery
970.252.0104 Fax
877.504.6819 Toll Free
MartinDEpstein on tue 25 dec 01
Dear Hank, What are advancer shelves and how many posts do you use
when stacking the kiln. You say your shelves don't warp and I would like=
to know why? I fire cone 10 reduction and my mistake is probably using
only 3 posts on silicon carbide shelves that are 12 inches by 24 inches. =
What do you think?
Francine Epstein in Morris Plains, NJ who is still enjoyi=
ng
your bird bowl. =
Rare - Earth - Design on tue 25 dec 01
Lee,
Don't know what you mean by "advancer" but it sounds like you have
silicon carbide shelves and what you describe is normally what I see when
people do not use some form of shelf protection, even with protection you
are still going to get the foamed up glaze drip, it knocks off easy with any
sharpish implement. I dust my shelves with calcined alumina shaken from a
fine mesh flour sieve, it means you have to clean the bottoms later but at
least you will have bottoms.
We all fire our kilns differently so the hype, unless it were to be a very
large book, can not cover every potter, I would opt for your initial
expectations being too high but you do have great shelves and over a long
period of time you will find that santa was very very god to you.
Regards,
Bob Hollis
---- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Marshall"
To:
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 4:03 PM
Subject: advancer shelves
> santa was very nice to me a gave me advancer shelves. don't need kiln
wash .
> really light. galze wont stick. couldnt wait to fire. BUT they look like
the
> glazed surface has been rubbed off in shippinf and when i fired a few of
> them, most of my porcelain pieces stuck, breaking the foot. also a glaze
drip
> does not come off and looks like it has foamed up and become part of the
> shelf. i did not put kiln wash on these shelves. they were fired to cone
10
> in reduction not salt. are these shelves as defective as i think they are?
or
> have they been over hyped and my expectations were too high?
>
> your input before i try to return them would be greatly appreciated.
> thanks
> lee
>
> lee marshall
> lmarsh1220@aol.com
> 615-286-1264
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Rikki Gill on tue 25 dec 01
Hi Lee, actually advancer shelves are made of a different material. Very
very thin and light weight. They don't actually warp, and i sometimes think
they revert back to their original shape if they do bow out a bit. I love
mine. I have 12, use them every firing, store them inside and have yet to
have a broken or cracked shelf. I have been using them for about 7 years.
Porcelain does tend to stick to the shelf surface, however. I dont use kiln
wash, tho I think that would help. I have no trouble scraping glaze drips
off the surface, so I could be Lee's shelves are defective. Hope this
helps. Rikki rikigil@cwnet.com
iginal Message-----
From: Rare - Earth - Design
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 4:53 AM
Subject: Re: advancer shelves
>Lee,
> Don't know what you mean by "advancer" but it sounds like you have
>silicon carbide shelves and what you describe is normally what I see when
>ople do not use some form of shelf protection, even with protection
Mark & Wynn Mai Fitzgerald on tue 25 dec 01
Lee,
I bit the bullet about a year and a half ago and invested over
$8000.00 in 44 21"x21" Advancers. My expectations of them were very high, and
I had spoken at length with three other potters who had all been using them
for over a year, and, to a person, they all highly recommended them.
In general, I have been very pleased with them. However, they have
not been without some problems. First of all, upon stacking the kiln with
them for the first time, I realized that I should have ordered four more of
them. My kiln is a 140 cubic ft. downdraft and my configuration for firing is
four of these shelves per level. I had previously used shelves that were 1"
thick, and because of the 5/16" thickness of the Advancers, I gained about 7"
of vertical space using the same number of shelves. Obviously, this is not a
problem with the shelves themselves, but it should be taken into
consideration by anyone contemplating their use.
I contacted Smith-Sharpe ( at the time they were still Minn.
Firebrick) and asked if they would sell me 4 more at the same price per shelf
that they had sold me the original 44 for. I had paid about $192.00/ shelf
which represented a quantity discount. The quantity being 40 or more
purchased at one time. The price for fewer than 10 was around $330.00/ shelf.
Dona, at Smith - Sharpe, checked with the manufacturer but was sorry to
report that if I only wanted 4 more I would have to pay full price. I decided
I could live with the number I had.
Now, to the problems with the shelves themselves. As I said, I have
mostly been pleased with them. I have noticed that some of my kiln furniture
sticks to them. I haven't coated the shelves with anything and I find that
maintaining the posts with kiln wash periodically pretty much solves this
problem. The reason I haven't coated the shelves themselves is because I
reverse them every other firing and don't want anything flaking off. I have
also had some glaze drips but, in my case, I have noticed that the glaze
brushes right off with a wire brush. I'm not sure what you were referring to
as the the "glazed surface rubbing off in shipping". I only know that some of
my shelves have a shinier surface than others. That's the way they came, and
that's the way they've stayed. This hasn't been a problem. I don't have a
problem with foot rims sticking, either, but I am using stoneware not
porcelain.
The really significant problem that I've experienced is that last
April, after 1 year of use, one of the shelves cracked. I heard it. As the
kiln was firing up, I heard a loud ping. At the time, I thought the angle
iron track for the kiln car had somehow shifted and caused the noise.
Unfortunately, when I unloaded, sure enough, one of the shelves in the lower
part of the kiln had cracked diagonally out from the front post to the
outside edge. I called Smith - Sharpe again and they had me send the broken
shelf back for analysis. Before the results of the analysis were complete
another shelf broke. This time during the cooling cycle of the kiln. My wife
heard this one. It was a smaller section that broke off, but, again, it was a
complete and clean break.
By this time my concern is turning to mild panic. Smith- Sharpe was
notified again and, in turn, they notified the manufacurer. Meanwhile, I
received an analysis report on the shelf I had sent back. According to this
report, there was no manufacturing defect. Their guess was that the cracks
were caused by thermal shock. My typical firing cycle is fairly conservative
in terms of temperature rise and fall, so I was unconvinced that this was the
cause. However, I lack the technical expertise to argue with the engineer's
report. So, I just accept the fact that they cracked. I don't accept that it
was necesarily due to thermal shock.
Throughout this ordeal, Dona and Marshall at Smith - Sharpe were
extremely helpful and accommodating. They have been great people to deal
with. To resolve the problem, they agreed to replace the broken shelves at no
cost to me, as well as to sell me 4 more shelves at their cost, which was
pretty close to the original price. I was satisfied with this arrangement and
had spent the past 7 and1/2 months firing ( usually 3 times/month) them
trouble-free, until a week ago. This time the kiln was cooled and more than
half unloaded and we heard that dreadful "PING" again. Same type of break,
same general location in the kiln. But the kiln car had been cooled and
rolled out for more than two hours. I don't know at this point whether or not
this will be resolved to my satisfaction, or if, worse yet, these shelves
will, over time, crack one by one. I certainly think that for the relative
amount of investment, that these shelves should hold up better than this, and
I shouldn't be holding my breath everytime I fire, cool down and unload.
Anybody??
Mark Fitzgerald
Hank Murrow on tue 25 dec 01
>Dear Hank, What are advancer shelves and how many posts do you use
>when stacking the kiln. You say your shelves don't warp and I would like
>to know why? I fire cone 10 reduction and my mistake is probably using
>only 3 posts on silicon carbide shelves that are 12 inches by 24 inches.
>What do you think?
> Francine Epstein in Morris Plains, NJ who is still enjoying
>your bird bowl.
Dear Francine;
So glad the bowl from the Shino Show is pleasing you still.
Advancer shelves (or setter tile) are made of Nitride-bonded
silicon-carbide by the St.Gobain Corp (used to be Norton). There is NO flux
material used to bind the grains of SiC together, as there is in
conventional setters. Mine are 5/16" thick x 14" x 28". I use kiln posts
like the ones illustrated in the Doorless Fiber Kiln article in the Sept
issue of CM. These are like bookshelves, where each shelf sets separately
on four lugs on the SiC posts.That way each may be removed or re-located
independently. A great boon in stacking, and also relieving each shelf of
the weight from those above. I'll attach a pic in a private post. I get
three dinner plates on each shelf, six to a layer (two shelves per layer).
The setters are really straight after all those fires. NO need to turn them.
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
Ceramic Design Group on tue 25 dec 01
> certainly think that for the relative
> amount of investment, that these shelves should hold up better than this, and
> I shouldn't be holding my breath everytime I fire, cool down and unload.
> Anybody??
>
> Mark Fitzgerald
I'll jump in on this one.
I like the "idea" of thin lightweight shelves and my back certainly would
appreciate them also. However, I think that for these benefits, the price
does not, in my opinion, merit my purchase. And here's why.
I think that we potters are very quick to jump onto or into as the case may
be for something that professes to do such and such and this new pottery
widgit is the greatest thing to happen to pottery since the wheel...and the
case goes on and on and I am sure that there are many on this list that can
cite many examples of things that were highly touted to be the next best
thing to sliced bread and just didn't perform up to specs. Now I am also
sure that there are many potters with using Advancers with a great deal of
success, but at $132 each in larger quantities and who knows what for
smaller ones, I'll stake my claim with Acme Marls Remcor composition
cordierite shelves.
Many years ago, our first experience with cordierite compositions was with
Sphinx refractories from Holland. We purchased 50 of their Alcorit
composition shelves 14" x 28" x 1" to use in conjunction with the same sized
silicon carbide ones. We purchased these in 1982 and still use them today.
They have not warped, cracked, or in any other way been rendered not
useable. As Sphinx was merged with another company, we then turned to Acme
Marls for the same sized shelves. We now have about 75 of these, and they
are rotated periodically in our fiber car kiln which holds about 25 of them.
We fire 3 times a week 46 weeks a year, and also include student work when
we can. We have never washed these shelves and see no reason to. (all
student work is fired on cookies) Our shelves are still looking brand new.
They don't warp. We cool quickly and they are designed for quick cooling.
Costs us $15.00 in natural gas, more or less, to fire our 50 cubic foot
fiber car kiln.
Each shelf weighs about 30 pounds. We e keep our car stacked relatively the
same, but there are parts of it that do change depending on the size of ware
that we are firing. If we need to move or add a shelf near the top, tearing
down the car and rebuilding the top part is a 2 person operation. Certainly
saves my back and doesn't costs $132 per shelf either. We have never had a
shelf crack under load, and many times the car is quite dense. We use alot
of Gimson plate setters and that too contributes to the weight on each
shelf. Seems that 2 people lifting a shelf and positioning it correctly
eliminates back injury, not to mention draining one's wallet.
The Remcor composition is designed for fast firing and cooling. In fact,
these shelves are used industrially in Europe by many companies, cycling
their loads faster then you or I. And they cost a fraction of an Advancer,
and even if they break in a rare case, you could probably buy 6 of them for
what it would take to replace on Advancer.
I know there are many on the list that wouldn't be without their Advancers,
but if as Mark has written, they are prone to thermal cracking, wouldn't it
be a bit more prudent to purchase shelving that is designed for quick cycles
and change work habits for lifting?
I'm open to be enlighted.
Best
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan, president
Ceramic Design Group
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs CO 80477
voice and fax 970 879-9139
info@ceramicdesigngroup.net
Plant Location:
1280 13th Street Unit 13
Steamboat Springs CO 80487
(please use this address for all deliveries via UPS, comman carrier, Fed Ex,
etc.)
"Custom design and manufacturing for the ceramic arts, giftware and pottery
industries. Molds, models, and tooling for slip casting, jiggering and
hydraulic pressing. Consultation on technical issues such as clay bodies
glazes, and kilns."
Rare - Earth - Design on wed 26 dec 01
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ceramic Design Group"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: advancer shelves
> > certainly think that for the relative
> > amount of investment, that these shelves should hold up better than
this, and
> > I shouldn't be holding my breath everytime I fire, cool down and unload.
> > Anybody??
> >
> > Mark Fitzgerald
>
>
> I'll jump in on this one.
>
>
> I like the "idea" of thin lightweight shelves and my back certainly would
> appreciate them also. However, I think that for these benefits, the price
> does not, in my opinion, merit my purchase.
When I first bought silicon carbide shelves years ago it was common
knowledge
among potters that they would break easily, given the abuse we craft potters
put
our equipment through.
This breaking can be avoided by having 4 cuts put in each shelf.
Each cut is done at a right angle to the edge of the shelf, is six inches
long and
ends at a hole made by a drill. The cuts are 1/3 of the way along each side.
They will NOT break, I will admit it looks as if there is no possible way
these can
hold together but they do.
Regards,
Bob Hollis
Craig Martell on wed 26 dec 01
Hey fellow kiln stackers:
The subjec of shelves comes up a lot on Clayart. That's not
surprising. We use them a lot.
I have about 30 Crystars and 12 Advancers. I've accumulated them over the
past 12 or so years. The first shelves of this type that I purchased were
Crystars which are like the Advancers but will fire hotter if you prefer
frying your pots on hi heat for a longer period. Crystars are rated to
2900 F and Advancers are rated to 2600 F. I paid $95.00 for my first batch
of Crystars and that was before Norton sold out. The most I've paid for
any of these shelves is $105.00. We usually get them thru Firebrick in St
Paul, Minnesota via a group buy. A guy here in Oregon bought $10,000.00
worth of Crystars so he could get the price break and then sold extras to
the rest of us. So it goes!
With normal care and caution in use, these shelves are a-ok! I don't baby
them and I've not lost one in the 12 or so years that I've used them. I
still haven't flipped any of the original Crystars and they are just as
flat and straight as the day I unpacked them. I'm not embellishing
this. They are really tough and strong. I give them a very light spray of
wash that is made from 75% alumina hydrate and 25% kaolin. I rewash every
couple of years and touch up when needed.
I know a lot of folks that use the Acme Marls hi aluminas. They are good
shelves and don't cost as much as the ultra thins. The big advantage for
me is the weight of the ultra thins, which is about 9lbs per shelf vs.
about 30lbs for the others. I work alone and load by myself so the light
shelves are a big plus. The very low maintainance is also a good point for
me. The shelves are always ready to go and if I have to touch up a few it
only takes a short time. Another thing I like is that I'm putting fewer
BTUs into furniture and more into the ware.
I'm not arguing the superiority of Crystars and Advancers. We all use the
best stuff we can get at a price that makes sense for our biz. If the Acme
Marls shelves are more attractive, for whatever reason, they are a good
product and are certainly worth having. I use Acme Marls plate setters and
really like them.
regards, Craig Martell in Oregon
Jennifer Boyer on wed 19 jan 05
I have some Advancers and have never had any problem with them blowing
up with normal use. They are kept off the floor in a kiln room that's
well ventilated but weather tight. I don't soak over night.
BUT I did make the hare brained mistake of kiln washing my shelves in
the morning, loading the kiln when they felt dry and firing the next
day with no overnight soak. No BLOWING up the kiln but one shelf broke
in 4 pieces, staying in place with some vases below becoming new posts!
Also a nitride bonded silicon carbide shelf split in 2. I can't believe
the mistakes I'm capable of even after 3 decades of potting!
I will preheat the next time I use kiln wash, which I do every few
years.
Jennifer
On Jan 19, 2005, at 1:38 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> as we all know now...they blow up.
> really blow up.
>
> so, they are wonderful, easy to clean, but
> never get them wet.
> the blow up. like a bomb.
> the kiln will be destroyed.
>
> we have had several clayarters have that
> wonderful experience.
> \ talked to one in medocino. clayart saved
> him several thousand dollars.
> he used posts and talked to others that had
> kilns blow up/and he was compensated.
> now they list the dangers with the purchase.
>
> i always pre/heat my firings. (advancers)
> have a small burner that i can keep on the night before.
> takes the kiln to 600F in about 9 hours.
> things are dry.
>
> i am more concerned about my kiln and shelves/posts
> than the ware. it will be fine, not always the shelves.
> mel
> From:
> Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
> web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
> or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
> new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
************************
Jennifer Boyer
Thistle Hill Pottery
Montpelier, VT
http://thistlehillpottery.com
mel jacobson on wed 19 jan 05
as we all know now...they blow up.
really blow up.
so, they are wonderful, easy to clean, but
never get them wet.
the blow up. like a bomb.
the kiln will be destroyed.
we have had several clayarters have that
wonderful experience.
\ talked to one in medocino. clayart saved
him several thousand dollars.
he used posts and talked to others that had
kilns blow up/and he was compensated.
now they list the dangers with the purchase.
i always pre/heat my firings. (advancers)
have a small burner that i can keep on the night before.
takes the kiln to 600F in about 9 hours.
things are dry.
i am more concerned about my kiln and shelves/posts
than the ware. it will be fine, not always the shelves.
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com
joyce on sun 9 dec 07
I pat my new advancers each and every time I pass them. Sometimes
I throw them a kiss, too. They've only
been fired twice but were worth every penny when I discovered how
simple it is to remove runny glazes. My. I think I'm in love.
I don't think we've mentioned just how light they are .... light as in not
heavy....... which is more important to me now than it was a couple
of years ago. They're so thin that when my son unpacked the eight
shelves and stacked them on the floor for me to transport to the studio
in my little cart, I checked and double-checked the stack to be sure that
I was correct before calling Bailey to say I needed my other two shelves.
Bailey couldn't have been more helpful but..... after several calls.... asked
me to please check the number again because they had several records
(weight of box when mailed etc) which indicated that they had sent out
eight shelves. The packaging hadn't been disturbed since leaving their
business, which to me eliminated the probability of someone else
(an Outsider!!) messing with my shelves.
Whatta ya' know?? There WERE eight which I discovered after picking up
and setting each shelf to form a new stack!! They were so thin that
unless stacked in perfect alignment it was easy to miscount, leaving out
a couple of shelves in the final total.
Even when I called Bailey to report my discovery and to say how
embarrassed I was that I hadn't restacked them in the first place,
(But who knew?) the unfortunate woman who had handled my calls
was gentle and kind, telling me that they really appreciated receiving
a call to tell them of my findings........ that often they never know what
had happened after their last call. She sounded sincere, and I
think she was. Again, what a great bunch of people. No one once
said, "you so and so dunderhead. Next time don't call unless you're
sure." Not once...................................
Joyce
In the Mojave where we, like Shula, had snow on our mountains this
morning ........ not deep and it was gone by afternoon........ but still
delightful. I've often wondered if Mojo could distinguish the mountains
which are very near to us. All I know is she took one look when I
opened the blinds as usual so she could look out from the back of the
loveseat and barked&jumped down/up/down etc as if she could see
the difference ..........
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