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signing work

updated wed 16 feb 05

 

Joyce Lee on fri 29 jun 01


Man ...... deja vu..... went through this... agonized over it..... when =
was it? A couple of years ago ... stupid as it seems ... my wobbly, =
runny pots ... and here I was deeply concerned about whether or not to =
sign or chop or what.. pitched right into the argument.... with my =
betters, no less... my many times betters. Seemed a significant issue =
at the time and worthy of my thoughts. Led to reading The Unknown =
Craftsman ..... several times..... concepts new to me since in my prior =
life I'd spent precious few minutes contemplating art/crafts and their =
place in the universe .... so the whole process was worthwhile in the =
long run. Still didn't agree that MY pots shouldn't be signed.... the =
ones I allowed to live, that is.=20

Thanks Mel, David et al for voices of sanity. This does not mean that I =
have any opinion at all about Warren Mac's work......... about it being =
signed, that is..... I love the work and would like one of his pots, =
signed or not ... but to me the signature brings closure to the pot .... =
and since I feel emotional about many pots, closure is not an =
inappropriate designation in this case. I also love Mel's work and am =
fortunate enough to own several pieces ... I would recognize his work =
across the room ... David's too.... I have one lone pot of David's ... =
a plate in red with his "signature" decorations. Having examined =
closely his website, I know that my plate is representative of his =
work... I would recognize his work..... but I WANT that signature, =
printed or not, doesn't matter..... I want them NOT in order to "make =
money" on the pot; I would never sell them ..... but I want to see the =
signature or printed mark because running my finger over the signature =
(and other info as well, In David's case... he gets a ton of stuff on =
the bottom of his pots) and observing how each signing is different from =
other potter's signings ... the way the signature also says something =
about the maker ... adds to the richness and intimacy of owning the =
work.=20

We search for thumb prints, finger marks etc on pots ..... especially =
those of the unknown craftsmen of the world...... marks that demonstrate =
that a live human being made this pot, one with fingers and hands very =
like our own..... we place our hands over such marks and dream of that =
unknown potter..... seems to me that sighting that very personal =
signature is just as meaningful and, therefore, important ...... anyway, =
it is to me.

Joyce
In the Mojave

Ann Sciba on sat 30 jun 01


I have never had the opportunity to see Warren MacKensie's work, or that of Hamada, except in pictures. So if the piece is not signed, or someone does not identify it for me, I have no idea who the potter might be. I do think that part of what we do is educate the public, and being anonomous does not further that goal.

The general public needs to see and know which pots are from the people who are considered the masters. How else will they be able to judge the work of the rest of us? And, like it or not, it IS all a comparison. There is not a list of good qualities for pots posted at the entrance to a gallery or a craft fair booth. So, if the pots are unsigned, how will the untutored know that they are looking at pots that are considered to be of high quality by the people who are supposed to know?

Ann Sciba
Wharton, TX

Matt MacIntire on sat 30 jun 01


Joyce, your eloquent post revealed a completely different aspect of this
discussion.

I tend to be (overly?) rational, as you may have realized from my posts.
It never occurred to me that signing a pot could create an emotional
connection such as you describe. The idea that a signature validates the
work in a personal way which can touch someone seems obvious, now that you
mention it.

It is interesting how many different reactions there are to such a simple
act. It may be no wonder this small decision is fraught with such profound
personal meaning for us.


Matt

Matt MacIntire on sat 30 jun 01


We humans have all been using pottery every day of our lives. Ann, I think
it is disingenuous to assert that people lack the ability to have any honest
appreciation of good pottery.

A potters view of what constitutes a beautiful pot is surely different from
the general public's view. However, I think the fundamental qualities of
well made pottery are accessible to everyone. Pottery is so linked to our
daily lives that EVERYONE is familiar with pottery in many practical ways.
Some pottery is made for limited audiences, but that is different. That
whole art vs. pottery discussion is different can of worms, eh?

I don't think we should strive to train anyone to accept the judgement of
experts regarding what is aesthetically correct. Instead we should be
helping people understand how to make these evaluations for themselves. I
fail to see how a signature influences this responsibility of ours to
educate people about pottery. Far better to just make the best pots we can,
and sign them as we will.


Matt

Lee Love on sun 1 jul 01


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt MacIntire" MattM@INTERSOFTCORP.COM:

> I don't think we should strive to train anyone to accept the judgement of
> experts regarding what is aesthetically correct. Instead we should be
> helping people understand how to make these evaluations for themselves.

I agree Matt. My comment about people not knowing who a pot was made
by was not aimed at the great majority of people, who own pottery for the love
of owning pottery, but only at the collectors and the makers who focus on
collectors. A person who buys a pot because they love it and want to use it
only knows that they like this particular pot. Like Hamada said, "the pots I
like are the best pots for me." Collectors, on the otherhand, need to know
what they collect well enough to make critical judgments about what they
collect, regardless of whether they are marked or not, if who made the object is
important to them.

At Shimaoka's workshop, people, from time to time, come in with pots and
want to know if they were really made by Shimaoka. These pots are always
stamped and often come with signed boxes, but these folks still want
verification. It often occurs when the pot is going to be sold. In my 17
months at the workshop, I've had the opportunity to see a couple fakes come in
for evaluation. One was a very large tsubo (jar.) So in the end, a mark
or a signature on a pot does not insure that a pot is made by a certain maker.

Hamada's museum is a joy to visit because his collection was not made by
a museum curator, a historian or someone thinking about monetary investments.
Hamada collected work he liked, often, inexpensive pots and handicraft made by
unknown craftsmen. He also collected with an educational attitude. Sometimes
the work is chipped, cracked and mended, so their monetary is not always high.
But the collection feels personal, alive and a reflection of the person who
collected them. This is, in my mind, the best way to collect.

--

Lee Love
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
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Maid O'Mud on fri 11 feb 05


I use a black kiln pencil after I've trimmed the pot bottom (the clay is
still leatherhard). Works great for me :-)

Sam Cuttell
Maid O'Mud Pottery
RR 1
Melbourne, Ontario
N0L 1T0
CANADA

"First, the clay told me what to do.
Then, I told the clay what to do.
Now, we co-operate."
sam 1994

http://www.ody.ca/~scuttell/
scuttell@ody.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: "claywomn"


Need help in finding the right combination to get a deep black when signing
pots. Red Iron Oxide with water smudges badly when I wax the bottom of my
work and doesn't come out a deep black.

Joe and Lisa Troncale on fri 11 feb 05


I use a mixture of Rutile and an oxide.
Joe Troncale
New Holland, PA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Harvey"
To:
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: Signing Work


>I just take a sharp point and scratch my name on the bottom of the pot
> before it drys. It works for me. GH Palestine TX
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "claywomn"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 6:34 AM
> Subject: Signing Work
>
>
> Need help in finding the right combination to get a deep black when
> signing
> pots. Red Iron Oxide with water smudges badly when I wax the bottom of my
> work and doesn't come out a deep black.
>
> Thanks for any help,
>
> Barbara
> In snowy Upstate NY
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
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>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
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>
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> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
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Rhonda Kale on fri 11 feb 05


I find it easier to sign with an black underglaze.Works with stamps too ( the softer rubbery kind-you can even make your own)
Just make sure you sort of roll out the dot of underglaze like you would in printing, stamp into the underglaze,then stamp pot, you can use this method all over pot if your stamps are flexible enough.


Rhonda Kale
31.23595 N, 85.40529 W
Potters Council Member
qndivauniv@earthlink.net

Cindy in SD on fri 11 feb 05


Dear Barbara,

You can purchase pens designed for signing pottery, but they don't work
all that well for me--kind of like a fussy ballpoint pen. You can also
get crayons. I find they break pretty easily, but maybe I haven't got
the knack for them. What I use for marking glaze test bowls is a little
manganese mixed in water to the consistency of fairly thin paint,
applied with a lettering brush. Wear a mask to mix this up--and gloves.
I don't think manganese can be absorbed through the skin, but it stains,
and of course you don't want to eat the stuff. I've also used black
Mason stain, mixed up the same way, same precautions.

If you don't need to mark the pots before firing, a Sharpie indelible
marker makes an absolutely permanent mark on my unglazed, fired clay. I
use the Sharpie to mark seconds. I always sign my pots by carving a
symbol on the base at leather hard stage. I use a loop tool. Others use
an old ballpoint pen, a needle tool, a sharpened pencil, etc. Some
people make or have someone else make a stamp for use on wet or slightly
dried clay. If it's a mug, I just carve my symbol. If it's an expensive
art piece, I write more stuff--what the carving is supposed to be, my
location, that sort of thing.

Have fun--you'll come up with just the right thing eventually
Cindy in SD

claywomn on fri 11 feb 05


Need help in finding the right combination to get a deep black when =
signing pots. Red Iron Oxide with water smudges badly when I wax the =
bottom of my work and doesn't come out a deep black.

Thanks for any help,

Barbara
In snowy Upstate NY

Gary Harvey on fri 11 feb 05


I just take a sharp point and scratch my name on the bottom of the pot
before it drys. It works for me. GH Palestine TX
----- Original Message -----
From: "claywomn"
To:
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 6:34 AM
Subject: Signing Work


Need help in finding the right combination to get a deep black when signing
pots. Red Iron Oxide with water smudges badly when I wax the bottom of my
work and doesn't come out a deep black.

Thanks for any help,

Barbara
In snowy Upstate NY

______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Ingeborg Foco on sat 12 feb 05


Barbara,

If you want a deep black, You can use an indelible permanent marker such as
a "Sharpie". You sign your work after it has been fired. It will withstand
dishwashing over and over again.

Ingeborg
the Potter's Workshop & Gallery
P.O. Box 510
3058 Stringfellow Road
St. James City, Florida 33956

239-283-2775


Need help in finding the right combination to get a deep black when signing
pots. .

Steve Mills on sat 12 feb 05


We mark all our glaze tests with a black underglaze pencil. It stays
clear and bright to cone 10 and doesn't rub off.

They're made in Italy and imported by one of our Suppliers, so I'd be
surprised if someone on your side of the pond hasn't got them.

Steve
Bath
UK


In message , claywomn writes
>
>Need help in finding the right combination to get a deep black when signi=
>ng
>pots. Red Iron Oxide with water smudges badly when I wax the bottom of m=
>y
>work and doesn't come out a deep black.
>
>Thanks for any help,
>
>Barbara
>In snowy Upstate NY
>
>_________________________________________________________________________=
>_____
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.

--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK

Vince Pitelka on sun 13 feb 05


> If you want a deep black, You can use an indelible permanent marker such
> as
> a "Sharpie". You sign your work after it has been fired. It will
> withstand
> dishwashing over and over again.

Dear Ingeborg -
I know that this works, but to me, it really goes against the grain. I
strongly believe that any markings on functional pottery should be fired on,
and I would never use a permanent marker. As compared to the permanence of
fired effects, a marker isn't permanent at all. Fired pottery can survive
millenia. That is part of makes it what it is.

And I cannot see any reason to do this. I did not see the beginning of this
thread, so I do not know the exact concern. To me, the best solution is
always to sign the work in in relief at the leather hard stage. A dull
pencil works best for this, or you can sharpen a piece of wood dowel in a
pencil sharpener and then slightly dull the tip with sandpaper. My favorite
tool for signing pots is a dead ball point pen. And then of course you can
use a stamp to impress signature, symbol, or logo into the clay.

Some people like to sign after the bisque firing, in which case iron oxide
or cobalt carb works great midrange or highfire work. Or, my favorite
medium, which will work in low-fire as well, is black underglaze thinned
slightly with water.
Good luck -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/

lela martens on sun 13 feb 05


>
>We mark all our glaze tests with a black underglaze pencil. It stays
>clear and bright to cone 10 and doesn't rub off.
>
>They're made in Italy and imported by one of our Suppliers, so I'd be
>surprised if someone on your side of the pond hasn't got them.
>
>Steve
> >
I found mine at our local pottery supply store here in Canada. AMACO , by
American art Clay. I dab wax emulsion with a finger tip to repel the glaze
on test tiles. It also works well under hot wax, doesn`t smudge if dipped.
Clear, easy, and the pencil lasts a very long time. Some draw or sketch
under a clear glaze. I have seen it in brown as well.

Lela

Ingeborg Foco on mon 14 feb 05


Vince said:
" Dear Ingeborg -
I know that this works, but to me, it really goes against the grain. I
strongly believe that any markings on functional pottery should be fired
on,
and I would never use a permanent marker. As compared to the permanence of
fired effects, a marker isn't permanent at all. Fired pottery can survive
millenia. That is part of makes it what it is."


Dear Vince,

The person who initiated this conversation wanted a way to make a "very
black mark." I agree with your thoughts on this. I always scratched my
signature into the clay. If the item was too dry to accept my signature, I
used a black,
green or brown underglaze pencil after bisque firing.

Recently, though, I started signing with a black marker after pots were
fired and
bottoms sanded. Reason, simple: People requested it. They all
complained that my pots were not signed; signature not visible or too faint.
I would then spend time pointing out where the signature actually was but I
could tell
they were not all that delighted and many could not really see what I was
pointing out. I don't feel it is my job nor do I want to "educate" people
on the aesthetics of pottery unless they ask. I am happy to have them buy a
piece and if they want to see INGEBORG in dark black marker, then I am happy
to oblige.

Perhaps it's because a large percentage of my customers are older and their
vision is not what it used to be; they had trouble seeing the scratched
version and
most didn't care for the subtle signature of an underglaze pencil.

I agree a black marker is a tad gaudy and ceramic pencil signature is more
tasteful. However, since the signature is on the bottom it really does not
interfere with the looks of the piece as it sits on a table. My customers
are
happy when they see the signature. I guess I'm more interested in pleasing
customers than worrying about the aesthetics of the bottom of the pot or
what
will happen after I am long gone. I try not to take myself too seriously
and
doubt any of my pots will have great value down the road.

Sincerely,

Ingeborg
the Potter's Workshop & Gallery
P.O. Box 510
3058 Stringfellow Road
St. James City, Florida 33956

239-283-2775

Lee Love on tue 15 feb 05


For recent clay tests of shigraki blends, I use letters from a rubber
stamp kit (it was an omaki, "free give" with candy or something.)
I did 1/1 and 2/1 blends of three different clays with the
shigaraki. I stamped the foot rings, one stamp for each part.
So 1/1 shigaraki/shino was a stamp for each. 2/1 shiragraki/shino
was two stamps for the shigaraki and one for the shino clay. Pretty
simple (K.I.S.S.) system.

Got some nice matt shino tests doing
lineblends of korean kaolin and neph sye. I have been testing by
calculation for 2 years with limited sucess. I think I have what I
want from a single lineblend test.

--
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://potters.blogspot.com/ WEB LOG
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/ Photos!

claybair on tue 15 feb 05


Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com

Unless I missed reading a posting I use a method
I haven't seen anyone mention.
I do a lot of sgraffio through a dark slip on my work.
My signature is sgraffito through a brush stroke
of the slip. It's bold that's for sure!
When I made a chop and started using it I got
complaints so went back to the sgraffito signage.
Using a blunt tip prevents sharp edges that require
careful removal. If you do get sharp edges wait until
it's bisqued then sand or scrape lightly.

Gayle Bair
Tucson, AZ
Bainbridge Island, WA
http://claybair.com


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Stephen on tue 15 feb 05


I just had to put my two cent worth in. For the 5 or so years that I did
not sign or mark my pots, I resorted to permanant marker onlya few times
because it was requested like some form of inverted flattery. I say
inverted because if they had undestood my resons for not signing and
appreciated the pot on its own merrits I would have been happier. I wish
sometimes that I were still not signing them. To me they are all marked
without the intentional signing or mark. I tell poeple that I went back to
signing because of preassure from my wife and Mother-in-law. This may only
be partly true. I got tired of explaining it. I used to use two stamps: one
decorative, and one with my initials and the year. Changing the symbol
every year was my idea of a joke to confuse future collectors. Working in
relation to traditional potttery as I do, interpreting for a living history
museum, while doing my own work and style , I hear a lot about antiques and
what things are worth. Now I have given up on using two stamps and just
stamp my initial. If I miss stamping, I use a black slip made of three
oxides, clay, and maybe a little of a dark glaze to help vitrify it and
integrate it with the other glazes (it is the same slip I use for over
painting). I don't wax though so I'm not sure about that. One day I may go
back to not signing. Pottery is more about the user and the pot than the
maker to me.I don't care if a person that I may barely know thinks of me or
not, when they drink thier coffee or fill the chamber pot. Just thought I'd
open another can of worms.
With the bestest of intenshuns,
Esteban

Michael Wendt on tue 15 feb 05


Recently I was given some fabric paint bottles by a local woman. WOW! They
are the perfect solution to bottom marking your work.
They write a fine line just like the old Rapidograph ink pens but you can
use Duncan Concepts or Amaco underglaze colors in them and they will fire
bright and clear.
An added bonus, the underglaze colors have a slight tendency to resist glaze
so they show through even better and produce a slight depression in the
glaze visible when light strikes the surface from an angle.
Now I can mark items that I could never print on before because of their
complex curve structure.
YAHOO!
err... sorry, didn't mean to yell... I'll get back to work now.
Regards
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave
Lewiston, Idaho 83501
USA
wendtpot@lewiston.com
www.wendtpottery.com
Ingeborg wrote:
I guess I'm more interested in pleasing
customers than worrying about the aesthetics of the bottom of the pot or
what
will happen after I am long gone. I try not to take myself too seriously
and
doubt any of my pots will have great value down the road.

Sincerely,

Ingeborg
the Potter's Workshop & Gallery