CINDI ANDERSON on sun 22 apr 01
Check the archives, there were a lot of discussions in the past couple years about
the value of an MFA.
I was just reading the book "Art and Fear" and they echo'd what I've heard others
say. You need an MFA to teach in a unversity, which is practically the only way to
make a living in art (not quite the only way but easier.) The problem is that when
you are teaching full time, you don't have time to make art.
If you are going to do it eventually (the MFA) and it's just a question of loans
now vs saving money for later, I would go for it now. It is always more difficult
to go back to school once you've been out. Sometimes it is more meaningful to wait
though, depending on your age and what you do between now and then.
Cindi
john boalick wrote:
> Hi all,
> I was accepted into a MFA program and am trying to make up my mind if I
> should accept. The dilemma involves money.With my previous school loans
> added to the cost of two years at grad school will put me at about $64,000
> in debt. I am not sure if I want to be paying $400 a month for the next 30
> years of my life, or if I could even afford too. I have the opportunity to
> teach art next year in the public schools and have thought I could do this
> as the other option and buy my own equipment to set up a studio, but I would
> mainly be trying to learn on my own and could not have the qualifications to
> teach at the college level. If I turn grad school down to save money I may
> not get in again.I think I was really lucky to get in this school. Neither
> decision is perfect I know but it has been bothering me. Any input or advice
> from you clayarters? I am sure others have been thru similar experiences.
> Thank you.
> Sincerely,
> John Boalick
vince pitelka on sun 22 apr 01
> If I turn grad school down to save money I may
> not get in again.I think I was really lucky to get in this school. Neither
> decision is perfect I know but it has been bothering me. Any input or
advice
> from you clayarters? I am sure others have been thru similar experiences.
John -
If you want to go to grad school you should definitely go at some point, but
that debt would scare the hell out of me too. You do not say how old you
are, but I did not go to grad school until I was 35. I had been a studio
potter for some years, and my wife and I could not afford grad school at all
if we had to pay for it, but fortunately we both got teaching assistantships
with stipends and tuition waivers. If you wait a few years and work hard on
your artwork, then you will can apply at any time, and you will stand a good
chance of getting an assistantship. This is not something you should rush.
You just need to make sure that you are always working towards that goal.
If you spend a few years teaching art in public schools, that will certainly
be noticed by anyone considering you for a teaching assistantship, but it
will not count for anything unless your artwork is fresh and exciting. That
must be the priority.
Good luck -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Tony Ferguson on sun 22 apr 01
Funny,
I am in a simliar situation except I keep getting
rejected from grad school. Says something about my
work, them or all the above. So I continue to make my
work, sell it, the drum goes on.
After my MA which will get you about nothun when it
comes to trying to teach at the college, I went back
to school to get my K-12 teacher cert.,(we started
having children, practical)taught a bit at a community
college, and recently I set up a studio in the artists
cooperative that we live, built a kiln, and now have
students, offer woodfire workshops now outside
Minneapolis where my Anagama is. Offering two classes
of 10 students each can yield $2000 a month at $200
each for an 8 week class. So if you have a space, it
can be very enjoyable. You will learn more from your
students then you could ever imagine...about clay,
life. And its cool, you're own show and theirs too.
With my own sales from my work I should be able to
make what I would teaching in the K-12 schools which I
am trying to avoid right now unless I find an
exceptional situation where the Art teachers don't
live off the scraps of the budget or are cut first.
Like you, I too am in debt from school. Its how the
system works. Grateful to beable to go to school and
owe them interest. Now--thinking of hanging out in
Duluth, an incredible mecca of artists, especially
clay, continue to teach and learn, and applying to the
pie in the sky grad school next year. Trying to cover
my wall with rejections and give them their $50
because they need it so badly to tell me no. I think
that's the plan. It could change. Three mouths to
feed and my mug. I mainly do shino & ash, single fire
Anagama, have for the last 10 years because I LIKE it
(I save love for humans)and it suits me and the work.
It's such a lost Art nobody can find a spot for me in
their graduate program. Oh, well, GO if they accepted
you. You are lucky and someone thinks you earned it.
I can't put glazes that match the interiors of
kitchens yet or carpet samples or make what they think
is a good pot or sculpture. Played that game. Maybe
coming into my own, finally, rejection teaches you
good things. I would encourage you to follow your
heart regardless of what anyone tells you and what is
practical. I figure I will apply till someone takes
me because I want to teach at a college somewhere
preferably in the midwest where I sell the least of my
work. I believe I have a great deal offer students.
You probably do to. I want to teach traditional
single or "raw" firing. Doesn't make sense to me to
bisque. The chinese, koreans, and Japanese probably
think we're stupid, but maybe not today's folks
because its institutionalized.
You got a dream and so you should follow it regardless
of how much interest you pay them. All debts get paid
off eventually. You got one life to live (at least
that you can remember till the next) do something
extraordinary.
Tony, Duluth MN
> > Hi all,
> > I was accepted into a MFA program and am trying to
> make up my mind if I
> > should accept. The dilemma involves money.With my
> previous school loans
> > added to the cost of two years at grad school will
> put me at about $64,000
> > in debt. I am not sure if I want to be paying $400
> a month for the next 30
> > years of my life, or if I could even afford too. I
> have the opportunity to
> > teach art next year in the public schools and have
> thought I could do this
> > as the other option and buy my own equipment to
> set up a studio, but I
> would
> > mainly be trying to learn on my own and could not
> have the qualifications
> to
> > teach at the college level. If I turn grad school
> down to save money I may
> > not get in again.I think I was really lucky to get
> in this school. Neither
> > decision is perfect I know but it has been
> bothering me. Any input or
> advice
> > from you clayarters? I am sure others have been
> thru similar experiences.
> > Thank you.
> > Sincerely,
> > John Boalick
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> __
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or
> change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
> >
> >
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
=====
--Tony Ferguson, fergyart@yahoo.com315 N. Lake Ave. Apt 401Duluth, MN 55806(218) 727-6339Looking to see, buy or barter artwork go to:http://acad.uwsuper.edu/www/aferguso/fergyart.htm
john boalick on sun 22 apr 01
Hi all,
I was accepted into a MFA program and am trying to make up my mind if I
should accept. The dilemma involves money.With my previous school loans
added to the cost of two years at grad school will put me at about $64,000
in debt. I am not sure if I want to be paying $400 a month for the next 30
years of my life, or if I could even afford too. I have the opportunity to
teach art next year in the public schools and have thought I could do this
as the other option and buy my own equipment to set up a studio, but I would
mainly be trying to learn on my own and could not have the qualifications to
teach at the college level. If I turn grad school down to save money I may
not get in again.I think I was really lucky to get in this school. Neither
decision is perfect I know but it has been bothering me. Any input or advice
from you clayarters? I am sure others have been thru similar experiences.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
John Boalick
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Charles on sun 22 apr 01
As far as I am concerned a decent grad program in ceramics will supply you
with opportunities for tuition wavers and stipends. I have heard it said in
my former ceramics program that someone who pays for grad school in ceramics
is a fool. There should be teaching opportunities and assistantships
available to make grad school easy on your wallet. Now I am not sure that
some cost won't be involved, but surely you can cut your losses and go with
a program that takes care of you.
-Charles Hughes
Check out our AMAZING workshop series
Pottery in Central PA will never be the same!
Next: Tony and Sheila Clennell, an amazing pottery duo from Canada
THEN Mr. Seth Cardew will be joining us to kick off his US tour.
http://www.thecreativeoasis.com/SP2001Workshops/workshop1.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "john boalick"
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 6:48 PM
Subject: Grad school Decision Input/Experience?
> Hi all,
> I was accepted into a MFA program and am trying to make up my mind if I
> should accept. The dilemma involves money.With my previous school loans
> added to the cost of two years at grad school will put me at about $64,000
> in debt. I am not sure if I want to be paying $400 a month for the next 30
> years of my life, or if I could even afford too. I have the opportunity to
> teach art next year in the public schools and have thought I could do this
> as the other option and buy my own equipment to set up a studio, but I
would
> mainly be trying to learn on my own and could not have the qualifications
to
> teach at the college level. If I turn grad school down to save money I may
> not get in again.I think I was really lucky to get in this school. Neither
> decision is perfect I know but it has been bothering me. Any input or
advice
> from you clayarters? I am sure others have been thru similar experiences.
> Thank you.
> Sincerely,
> John Boalick
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
William Moody on sun 22 apr 01
You may want to check into assistantships at the University you are planning
to attend. My wife's grad assistantship comes with a tuition waiver plus a
small amount of money for about 20 hours of work a week. At the university I
attended for my BFA almost all of the ceramics grads were on assistantships,
but I am not sure about their tuition. Good luck and I envy you! After my
wife gets out of grad school it will be my turn!
John Post on sun 22 apr 01
Hi John,
If you know what your goal is, it makes it easier to choose
your path. If you feel that your goal is to teach at the
college level then of course you will need the MFA. If your
goal is to teach in the public schools then you have already
arrived at your goal. If your goal is to set up your own
studio then an MFA is by no means required to do that, and
teaching certainly is a good way to enjoy a stable income
that you can use to set up your pottery.
It sounds simple doesn't it. The hard part is choosing what
you want to do.
I love teaching young kids about clay, so the natural place
for me is teaching in the public schools.
I am pursuing an MA in ceramics for two reasons. The first
is that it helps me maintain my teaching certification (and
gets me a pay raise). The second is that I enjoy being a
potter. Some of the profs at the school I am attending
think that I should think of myself as an artist first and
as a teacher second. In my book they are both equal and go
hand in hand. I'm both, along with lots of other things.
The profs can say what they want, I know my goals and what I
need to get there.
When you have decided what you want to do with your time,
your money and your life, it is easy to figure out what you
need to do to get there. The goal will tell you what your
priorities need to be.
You only get to be on the planet once, so figure out what
you want to do and then choose the path that gets you there.
John Post
>...The dilemma involves money.With my previous school loans
> added to the cost of two years at grad school will put me
at about $64,000
> in debt...
>I have the opportunity to
> teach art next year in the public schools and have thought
I could do this
> as the other option and buy my own equipment to set up a
studio,
>...and could not have the >qualifications to
> teach at the college level.
Ron Collins on mon 23 apr 01
Don't even THINK about grad school putting you in total debt of 60,000+
dollars....teach first, at least two years...after one year you won't be
sure you like teaching enough to stay, after two years, you will
know.......if you think that you can sell enough pots and get a good enough
job with an MFA in claywork, I think you are not in reality.....don't do
it....Melinda in Guatemala
Susan Fox Hirschmann on mon 23 apr 01
I agree with the assistantship route and would like to share my daughter's
experience. Once she was accepted at Grad school, she made several visits
with her resume, pictures of the work she had done (it just so happened this
was with sea turtles) but the same can go for art. She did some reserach on
the particular professors at the school with similar interests ....and she
made appointments with several of those marine biology related professors.
She told them that this was her dream to study this (you probably don't need
to be that "guishy!" and to save the marine mammals (or whatever
classifictationt they are) and that she needed the money and would like to do
reserach or whatever they needed. She also offered to do some volunteer work
to get into the program (turtle scoops as they call them!) She saw THE RIGHT
PEOPLE....and received a full reserach assistantship. She needed to change
her state residencey from va. to florida to receive it, which she did, which
meant she had to get insurance down there, etc, but it has been well worth
it, as she is able to pay her apt, and other expenses with the stipend.
I hope this experience will help you with you decision.
As Vince said, there is money out there, other than loans, and it is just
knowing how to get it, and who to see that will help you retain in.
Good luck
Susan Fox Hirschmann
Annandale, VA
Anita M. Swan on mon 23 apr 01
Hi John,
I teach in a public middle school and have to mention that it is a good, stable
income to support me while I work as a potter evenings, weekends and summers. It
was working great till I was hit by multiple sclerosis and had to cut back on
teaching and potting. The pay in public schools is generally better than
university salaries (at least here in Maryland) and the benefits are really good if
you need them! If you teach at the high school level you can specialize in
ceramics and sculpture, but I really like the broad range of media that I get to
explore with middle school kids. Plus, I like this age group - they are so
enthusiastic! I don't think I would like elementary as much - their skills are not
developed enough - too much 'this is how we use the scissors' Good luck! Nita
john boalick wrote:
> Hi all,
> I was accepted into a MFA program and am trying to make up my mind if I
> should accept. The dilemma involves money.With my previous school loans
> added to the cost of two years at grad school will put me at about $64,000
> in debt. I am not sure if I want to be paying $400 a month for the next 30
> years of my life, or if I could even afford too. I have the opportunity to
> teach art next year in the public schools and have thought I could do this
> as the other option and buy my own equipment to set up a studio, but I would
> mainly be trying to learn on my own and could not have the qualifications to
> teach at the college level. If I turn grad school down to save money I may
> not get in again.I think I was really lucky to get in this school. Neither
> decision is perfect I know but it has been bothering me. Any input or advice
> from you clayarters? I am sure others have been thru similar experiences.
> Thank you.
> Sincerely,
> John Boalick
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Dannon Rhudy on tue 24 apr 01
Graduate school can be very enlightening in many ways.
However, it is not necessary to put yourself in
greater debt to go. A debt of $60-odd thousand is
significant. To an artist it might well be overwhelming.
If you have already been accepted at a place that
you like, there is no doubt that with some experience
and good slides you will be accepted into other places,
also. Many, if not most, grad schools arrange for
their students to work/assist/teach enough to cover
bare essentials, and often remit tuition. I got
through graduate school without borrowing. I
determined that it was better to do without while
a student than to emerge from school with a
degree in one hand and an enormous bill in the
other. I don't regret that decision.
Borrowed money has to be repaid. Plus an amazing
amount of interest.
While having an MFA theoretically puts one in a
position to teach at college level, the reality is
this:
Nearly every state in the Union has at least one
University offering an MFA in ceramics. Many
states have more than one - Texas has at least
6, California, New York - you might be surprised.
Several students per school graduate each year.
The number of teaching positions that open up each
year are very few - about 15 or 20, generally speaking.
Easy math - and don't forget to factor in all the
previous graduates who have not yet found a job and
are still looking. Many jobs that are listed will
have 300 or more applicants.
Don't borrow money if you can possibly avoid it.
Particularly don't borrow it if you are counting
on an immediate teaching job to help you repay it.
There are better options. Look around a little more.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
julie crosby on tue 24 apr 01
>From: john boalick
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Grad school Decision Input/Experience?
>Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 22:48:46 -0000
>
>Hi all,
>I was accepted into a MFA program and am trying to make up my mind if I
>should accept. The dilemma involves money.With my previous school loans
>added to the cost of two years at grad school will put me at about $64,000
>in debt. I am not sure if I want to be paying $400 a month for the next 30
>years of my life, or if I could even afford too. I have the opportunity to
>teach art next year in the public schools and have thought I could do this
>as the other option and buy my own equipment to set up a studio, but I
>would
>mainly be trying to learn on my own and could not have the qualifications
>to
>teach at the college level. If I turn grad school down to save money I may
>not get in again.I think I was really lucky to get in this school. Neither
>decision is perfect I know but it has been bothering me. Any input or
>advice
>from you clayarters? I am sure others have been thru similar experiences.
>Thank you.
>Sincerely,
> John Boalick
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
hey john,
if you applied to grad school in the first place there must be a reason. in
my oppinion, grad school isn't for everyone, but if you you feel ready then
go for it. it's difficult to know what your gut is telling you to do in
times of uncertainty, listen to it if you can. trust your instincts. grad
school may provide you with more oppourtunities to teach in the future, and
space for personal growth. on the other hand if money is a concern, perhaps
you need to seek out programs that will provide scholarships or pay your
way. who's to say you won't get into other programs. also, if the place
you plan to set up your studio, if you decide to do that, has a supportive
community, where you can keep talking about your work and where people will
ask you questions, then why not try it. i'm hope i'm not confusing you
more. in the end you need to trust yourself and what you feel is right for
you, and don't underestimate that gut feeling. whatever you decide, good
luck on your journey! sincerly, Julie Crosby.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
vince pitelka on tue 24 apr 01
> .......if you think that you can sell enough pots and get a good enough
> job with an MFA in claywork, I think you are not in reality.....don't do
> it....Melinda in Guatemala.
Melinda -
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think the above represents
another generalization which does not stand up at all. I do not know what
your experience was, but I would be interested to hear more about it.
It seems that there are a lot of people out there who are bitter about the
"payoff" of a graduate education. Each individual reaps from grad school
and professional experience whatever they put into it. Everyone I know who
has completed an MFA in ceramics with the sure objective of getting a
teaching job and/or becoming a self-supporting studio artist, and who has
followed through appropriately after actually completing the MFA, has
succeeded in their objective. The MFA is certainly no longer any guarantee
of a teaching job right out of grad school. That was true once, but not for
the last twenty years. Now, the MFA grad must scramble for part-time
teaching jobs, residencies, and exhibitions in order to build a good resume
which demonstrates a strong commitment to teaching. If the individual is
pursuing this direction because they are truly committed to teaching and to
making art, then everything will fall into place.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
Lee Love on sat 28 apr 01
Hi Jim,
Maybe someone has mentioned this. Have you thought about trying=
to get
a grad assistanceship?
Have you ever thought about doing an apprenticeship? I suppose=
this
all depends on what you want to end up doing. If you want a chance to t=
each at
a University, I suppose you need an MFA. But if you want to make potter=
y, you
have other alternatives. And if you are lucky, you can get paid while y=
ou
learn.
--
Lee Love
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
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barbara lewis on tue 1 may 01
John: I'm just now getting to Clayart. I know this reply is late, but a
couple of thoughts: how old are you and how much longer would you be
employed at a potential university teaching job. For myself, I had thoug=
ht
I would go on to grad school but after just turning 50, I'm looking forwa=
rd
more to retirement (play) than to the demands of grad school. If you
really want to teach at a university/college, it is necessary to have the
degree. If all you want is the information, there are other venues. Also=
,
are there any grants for grad students? Several people I have known have
taught or run the school studio lab in exchange for tuition. Anyway,
congratulations on your acceptance. What a nice problem to have, huh?
Barbara
At 04:40 PM 4/23/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi John,
>I teach in a public middle school and have to mention that it is a good,
stable
>income to support me while I work as a potter evenings, weekends and
summers. It
>was working great till I was hit by multiple sclerosis and had to cut ba=
ck on
>teaching and potting. The pay in public schools is generally better tha=
n
>university salaries (at least here in Maryland) and the benefits are
really good if
>you need them! If you teach at the high school level you can specialize=
in
>ceramics and sculpture, but I really like the broad range of media that =
I
get to
>explore with middle school kids. Plus, I like this age group - they are=
so
>enthusiastic! I don't think I would like elementary as much - their
skills are not
>developed enough - too much 'this is how we use the scissors' Good luck=
!
Nita
>
>john boalick wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> I was accepted into a MFA program and am trying to make up my mind if =
I
>> should accept. The dilemma involves money.With my previous school loan=
s
>> added to the cost of two years at grad school will put me at about $64=
,000
>> in debt. I am not sure if I want to be paying $400 a month for the nex=
t 30
>> years of my life, or if I could even afford too. I have the opportunit=
y to
>> teach art next year in the public schools and have thought I could do =
this
>> as the other option and buy my own equipment to set up a studio, but I
would
>> mainly be trying to learn on my own and could not have the
qualifications to
>> teach at the college level. If I turn grad school down to save money I=
may
>> not get in again.I think I was really lucky to get in this school. Nei=
ther
>> decision is perfect I know but it has been bothering me. Any input or
advice
>> from you clayarters? I am sure others have been thru similar experienc=
es.
>> Thank you.
>> Sincerely,
>> John Boalick
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>>
>>
_________________________________________________________________________=
_____
>> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
>________________________________________________________________________=
___
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
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