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s/cracks/fibre(double rant)

updated wed 18 apr 01

 

Edouard Bastarache on mon 16 apr 01


Hello Craig,

on top of being irritant, ceramic fibers have been classified
as follows:


"Source: TA:IARC monographs on the evaluation of carcinogenic risks to hu=
man
PG:39-171


Glasswool is possibly carcinogenic to humans (Group 2B). Glass filaments =
are
not classifiable as to their carcinogenicity to humans (Group 3). Rockwoo=
l
is possibly carcinogenic to humans (Group 2B). Slagwool is possibly
carcinogenic to humans (Group 2B). Ceramic fibres are possibly carcinogen=
ic
to humans (Group 2B)."

IARC is the International Agency for Cancer Research located in Lyon,
France.
It is very hard to oppose them.


Later,

Edouard Bastarache
Irr=E9ductible Qu=E9becois
Sorel-Tracy
Dans / In "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
----- Message d'origine -----
De : craig clark
=C0 :
Envoy=E9 : 16 avril, 2001 20:16
Objet : Re: s/cracks/fibre(double rant)


> It seems as if my innocent question about potential hazards with
ceramic
> fibre has set off a bit of a storm. At last count more folks were comin=
g
> down on the side of caution in handling and common sense than folks
> suggesting to stop all use for fear of mesothelioma.
> Unfortunately, none of these opinions, of which I happen to hold th=
e
> former, site any source of clinical study or data as a source. Does any=
one
> have this type of information or do they know where one may obtain it?
> I grew up at ground zero for a lot of the asbestosis law suits beca=
use
> it was used so extensively by the petrochemical industry in my neck of =
the
> woods (South East Texas.) Walter Umphries, from Beaumont, was one of th=
e
> lawyers to intially take on and win judgements against industry. The on=
e
> thing that we have learned from the lawsuits and the extensive studies
that
> they have generated is that industry new damn good and well that asbest=
os
> fibers posed a significant health risk and that they failed to inform t=
he
> poorly educated workers that worked with it. They lied. Much like the
> tobacco industry lied for all of those years.
> The long and the short of it is that I do not trust what industry
> generally has to say about their own products. Which brings me back to =
the
> purpose of my initial query. Does anyone have any information, behind t=
he
> anecdotal type or that generated by the industry itself, that specifies
the
> increased propensity that one may, or may not, incurr if one is exposed
> either advertently, or inadvertently, over the short and long haul, to
> ceramic insulating fiber dust, either fired or unfired? Thankyou
> Craig Dunn Clark
> 619 East 11 1/2 St.
> Houston, TX 77008
> (713) 861-2083
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mel jacobson
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Date: Monday, April 16, 2001 6:49 AM
> Subject: s/cracks/fibre(double rant)
>
>
> >let us not go nuts about fibre. kaowool does irritate the throat
> >when you handle it. be careful. it does not fly around and kill
> >you. i would be concerned if i worked with it every day. building
> >kilns for geil, or working in a factory. but, the casual use of
> >it to build a small raku kiln, line some things...god, you will be
> >fine. just use your mask when you fluff it, mess with it. then
> >leave it alone. be careful. folks have been using it just fine
> >for 40 years. no damage done.
> >don't do chicken little..the earth is falling.
> >
> >remember, it was the asbestos workers that died...working
> >with asbestos 50 hours a week, day in and day out. if you
> >touched a piece of asbestos once in your life...it did not jump
> >up and choke you to death.
> >
> >it is like the firestone tires...did the cars just turn upside
> >down by themselves? no, it was a group of idiots in suv's,
> >driving a hundred miles an hour on a desert road at 100 degrees F.
> >with off road tires. no seat belt on. does that mean we all
> >die if we buy firestone tires?...well of course not. \ `but, wally,
> >those tires look so cool, so big, makes me feel tough.`
> >
> >common sense rules these issues...but there is not much of it
> >left...remember, it is our law suits that cause the government
> >to regulate everything. use your brain, take care of yourself.
> >don't wrap yourself in saran wrap..it is stupid.
> >
> >i have mentioned often on this list that s cracking for me has
> >always been in high talc, or super fine bodies. it never happens
> >to me with my normal stoneware clay. i have always used an
> >open body with some sand and grog. (fine grog) i hump throw
> >often, cone my clay a bit, but the body is made to be open, and
> >not s crack. i do not have to compress my fingers bloody.
> >
> >there are bodies out there that are prone to s cracks. it is
> >in the quick drying and of course the way the platlettes are set up.
> >i have tested many bodies for s cracking....if it occurs, the potter
> >must take steps to correct it...like coning, like compressing a great
> >deal, or as nils does...REVERSE YOUR LUMP. yes, center your lump
> >and then wire if off, turn it upside down...re center, no s cracks.
> >this technique causes the clay to do as vince just told us yesterday.
> >it re arranges the platlettes.
> >
> >personally i would never have a clay body around that continued
> >to s crack...i would modify it. some of you cannot do that, and
> >ron has pointed out, you may create a clay body to do other things.
> >like, color, texture etc. i respect that. if you do that however,
> >learn to do the things that adjust for cracking...that is hard work,
> >and you will have losses. (but, for some, the quality is worth it.)
> >so be it. of course there are those that have a worthless clay
> >body, use it for 40 years, have huge losses,and just keep using
> >it. whine at least every time they open a kiln. `BUT, I LOVE
> >BUFFIE STONE, IT IS MY BODY, if feels just like baby pooh.` stupid.
> >mel
> >i once had 26 kiln shelves crack.
> >sued them...got my money back.
> >they all denied it though...it was my
> >fault. my first set of shelves lasted
> >25 years...still have them at the farm.
> >these lasted about five firings. i guess it was
> >my fault. shame. (now, that is the proper use
> >of the law. no one would help me. so..wham, i only
> >wanted my money back..not a million dollars.)
> >mel
> >
> >
> >From:
> >Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
> >web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
> >
>
>________________________________________________________________________=
___
> ___
> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
___
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

mel jacobson on mon 16 apr 01


let us not go nuts about fibre. kaowool does irritate the throat
when you handle it. be careful. it does not fly around and kill
you. i would be concerned if i worked with it every day. building
kilns for geil, or working in a factory. but, the casual use of
it to build a small raku kiln, line some things...god, you will be
fine. just use your mask when you fluff it, mess with it. then
leave it alone. be careful. folks have been using it just fine
for 40 years. no damage done.
don't do chicken little..the earth is falling.

remember, it was the asbestos workers that died...working
with asbestos 50 hours a week, day in and day out. if you
touched a piece of asbestos once in your life...it did not jump
up and choke you to death.

it is like the firestone tires...did the cars just turn upside
down by themselves? no, it was a group of idiots in suv's,
driving a hundred miles an hour on a desert road at 100 degrees F.
with off road tires. no seat belt on. does that mean we all
die if we buy firestone tires?...well of course not. \ `but, wally,
those tires look so cool, so big, makes me feel tough.`

common sense rules these issues...but there is not much of it
left...remember, it is our law suits that cause the government
to regulate everything. use your brain, take care of yourself.
don't wrap yourself in saran wrap..it is stupid.

i have mentioned often on this list that s cracking for me has
always been in high talc, or super fine bodies. it never happens
to me with my normal stoneware clay. i have always used an
open body with some sand and grog. (fine grog) i hump throw
often, cone my clay a bit, but the body is made to be open, and
not s crack. i do not have to compress my fingers bloody.

there are bodies out there that are prone to s cracks. it is
in the quick drying and of course the way the platlettes are set up.
i have tested many bodies for s cracking....if it occurs, the potter
must take steps to correct it...like coning, like compressing a great
deal, or as nils does...REVERSE YOUR LUMP. yes, center your lump
and then wire if off, turn it upside down...re center, no s cracks.
this technique causes the clay to do as vince just told us yesterday.
it re arranges the platlettes.

personally i would never have a clay body around that continued
to s crack...i would modify it. some of you cannot do that, and
ron has pointed out, you may create a clay body to do other things.
like, color, texture etc. i respect that. if you do that however,
learn to do the things that adjust for cracking...that is hard work,
and you will have losses. (but, for some, the quality is worth it.)
so be it. of course there are those that have a worthless clay
body, use it for 40 years, have huge losses,and just keep using
it. whine at least every time they open a kiln. `BUT, I LOVE
BUFFIE STONE, IT IS MY BODY, if feels just like baby pooh.` stupid.
mel
i once had 26 kiln shelves crack.
sued them...got my money back.
they all denied it though...it was my
fault. my first set of shelves lasted
25 years...still have them at the farm.
these lasted about five firings. i guess it was
my fault. shame. (now, that is the proper use
of the law. no one would help me. so..wham, i only
wanted my money back..not a million dollars.)
mel


From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots

Edouard Bastarache on mon 16 apr 01


Hello Mel,

" remember, it was the asbestos workers that died...working
with asbestos 50 hours a week, day in and day out. if you
touched a piece of asbestos once in your life...it did not jump
up and choke you to death."

Right on!!!

Just last night I was talking on the phone with a former union
representative of Quebec asbestos mine workers and he was
still amazed at the very few workers who suffered from asbestosis
when compared to the majority of people who worked in those
mines in environmental conditions a lot more severe than those
prevailing today.

We were more concerned about the 90 cases of pleural meso-
thelioma so far diagnosed among our local shipyard workers
because they have been exposed to asbestos fibers many years
ago, even if asbestos was banned from that shipyard in 1973.
Mesothelioma are chiefly caused by asbestos exposure in
workers using asbestos products.

One thing that bugs me is that we are now facing cases as
asbestos-related diseases among steelworkers who wore
protective asbestos-made clothes in past years in steelmelting
departments.

Also a study among german stainless steel welders showed an
excess of pleural mesothelioma while it was an excess of bronchial
cancers that was expected because of their exposure to hexavalent
chromium in welding fumes; this was explained by the fact that these
welders often cover and uncover welded stainless-steel pieces
protected by asbestos blankets.

Later,

philrogers pottery on mon 16 apr 01


Mel this post is irresponsible! ( sorry)

I have posted on this subject before and I don't want to repeat myself bu=
t I
will just repeat the following:

When I wrote a letter to Ceramic Review warning of the dangers of Ceramic
Fibre I had, almost by return, a package from a cardio vascular consultan=
t
surgeon from Brazil. In the package was the whole of his findings from a
research into CF and its effects. The reading was very scary indeed. He h=
ad
found direct links from CF to Mesothelioma and also found a twenty to thi=
rty
year incubation period for the disease.

It is not good enough to say that only prolonged use will cause harm. Thi=
s
need not be the case and, frankly, how do you know!? Coincidentally, with=
in
two months of my letter to Ceramic Review the British Government, not kno=
wn
for their quick and speedy reaction to these things, classed CF as a
carcinogenic. It is now sold with the proper warnings and health and safe=
ty
instructions.

My cousin is currently dying from Lung Cancer, never smoked in his life, =
an
airline pilot. Obviously not the fault of CF but what ever it was he sure
didn't get a long exposure to it! You are also wrong about asbestos. My s=
on
in law lost his mother to lung cancer at the age of 52 a few months ago. =
She
never smoked either. The cause, the asbestos mat at the end of her ironin=
g
board!

Take all care in the use of CF its not a friendly material and should be
treated with utmost respect.

Phil.
Phil and Lynne Rogers,
Lower Cefn Faes,
RHAYADER.
Powys. LD6 5LT.

Tel/fax. (44) 01597 810875.
philrogers@ntlworld.com
www.philrogerspottery.com

----- Original Message -----
From: mel jacobson
To:
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 12:55 PM
Subject: s/cracks/fibre(double rant)


> let us not go nuts about fibre. kaowool does irritate the throat
> when you handle it. be careful. it does not fly around and kill
> you. i would be concerned if i worked with it every day. building
> kilns for geil, or working in a factory. but, the casual use of
> it to build a small raku kiln, line some things...god, you will be
> fine. just use your mask when you fluff it, mess with it. then
> leave it alone. be careful. folks have been using it just fine
> for 40 years. no damage done.
> don't do chicken little..the earth is falling.
>
> remember, it was the asbestos workers that died...working
> with asbestos 50 hours a week, day in and day out. if you
> touched a piece of asbestos once in your life...it did not jump
> up and choke you to death.
>
> it is like the firestone tires...did the cars just turn upside
> down by themselves? no, it was a group of idiots in suv's,
> driving a hundred miles an hour on a desert road at 100 degrees F.
> with off road tires. no seat belt on. does that mean we all
> die if we buy firestone tires?...well of course not. \ `but, wally,
> those tires look so cool, so big, makes me feel tough.`
>
> common sense rules these issues...but there is not much of it
> left...remember, it is our law suits that cause the government
> to regulate everything. use your brain, take care of yourself.
> don't wrap yourself in saran wrap..it is stupid.
>
> i have mentioned often on this list that s cracking for me has
> always been in high talc, or super fine bodies. it never happens
> to me with my normal stoneware clay. i have always used an
> open body with some sand and grog. (fine grog) i hump throw
> often, cone my clay a bit, but the body is made to be open, and
> not s crack. i do not have to compress my fingers bloody.
>
> there are bodies out there that are prone to s cracks. it is
> in the quick drying and of course the way the platlettes are set up.
> i have tested many bodies for s cracking....if it occurs, the potter
> must take steps to correct it...like coning, like compressing a great
> deal, or as nils does...REVERSE YOUR LUMP. yes, center your lump
> and then wire if off, turn it upside down...re center, no s cracks.
> this technique causes the clay to do as vince just told us yesterday.
> it re arranges the platlettes.
>
> personally i would never have a clay body around that continued
> to s crack...i would modify it. some of you cannot do that, and
> ron has pointed out, you may create a clay body to do other things.
> like, color, texture etc. i respect that. if you do that however,
> learn to do the things that adjust for cracking...that is hard work,
> and you will have losses. (but, for some, the quality is worth it.)
> so be it. of course there are those that have a worthless clay
> body, use it for 40 years, have huge losses,and just keep using
> it. whine at least every time they open a kiln. `BUT, I LOVE
> BUFFIE STONE, IT IS MY BODY, if feels just like baby pooh.` stupid.
> mel
> i once had 26 kiln shelves crack.
> sued them...got my money back.
> they all denied it though...it was my
> fault. my first set of shelves lasted
> 25 years...still have them at the farm.
> these lasted about five firings. i guess it was
> my fault. shame. (now, that is the proper use
> of the law. no one would help me. so..wham, i only
> wanted my money back..not a million dollars.)
> mel
>
>
> From:
> Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
> web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
___
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Hank Murrow on mon 16 apr 01


Mel wrote;

>let us not go nuts about fibre. kaowool does irritate the throat
>when you handle it. be careful. it does not fly around and kill
>you. i would be concerned if i worked with it every day. building
>kilns for geil, or working in a factory. but, the casual use of
>it to build a small raku kiln, line some things...god, you will be
>fine. just use your mask when you fluff it, mess with it. then
>leave it alone. be careful. folks have been using it just fine
>for 40 years. no damage done.
>don't do chicken little..the earth is falling.


Gee Mel;

I could not have said it better myself! But I have refrained because I ha=
ve
been known to design and build kilns with ceramic fiber; thus drawing the
wrath of chicken littles everywhere. The installation of my kilns include=
s
having the potter make the modules themselves so that they would know how
to maintain the kiln, as well as reducing the exposure to a one time thin=
g.
The alternative being to pay undocumented workers to do it everyday, as i=
s
done in industry(I have been to their factories).

The problem with asbestos is that it gets so fine in cross-section that i=
t
no longer triggers the cough reflex, leading to overexposure. Ceramic fib=
er
does not delaminate as asbestos does(rather like string cheese), becoming
finer and finer in cross-section. It just breaks into smaller lengths, an=
d
poses no more danger than any dust in the studio.

Making the modules is an uncomfortable process, but with a good mask and
common sense all is possible! There is no later exposure with my lifting
design. Fiber does not fly around while firing, only if you abrade the
stuff does it come loose, and good design can entirely mitigate that
occurrence.

Mel, thanks so much for your candor and good sense! Hank in Eugene

Marek & Pauline Drzazga-Donaldson on mon 16 apr 01


Dear Phil,

thanks for putting your point of view. I also think Mels posting was =3D
more than a little irresponsible. Consider the amount of posts regarding =
=3D
leaching/safe glazes etc.
I treat CF with a great amount of respect, whereas, I must admit to =3D
being somewhat lax when it comes to wearing masks when cleaning etc., =3D
but I would not suggest that anyone else follows my example.
Common sense needs to be applied at all times, but be aware that some on =
=3D
the list regard the words of Gods/Olympians/Gurus as Gospel.

happy potting from Marek Drzazga (Donaldson) http://www.moley.uk.com=3D2=
0

craig clark on mon 16 apr 01


It seems as if my innocent question about potential hazards with cera=
mic
fibre has set off a bit of a storm. At last count more folks were coming
down on the side of caution in handling and common sense than folks
suggesting to stop all use for fear of mesothelioma.
Unfortunately, none of these opinions, of which I happen to hold the
former, site any source of clinical study or data as a source. Does anyon=
e
have this type of information or do they know where one may obtain it?
I grew up at ground zero for a lot of the asbestosis law suits becaus=
e
it was used so extensively by the petrochemical industry in my neck of th=
e
woods (South East Texas.) Walter Umphries, from Beaumont, was one of the
lawyers to intially take on and win judgements against industry. The one
thing that we have learned from the lawsuits and the extensive studies th=
at
they have generated is that industry new damn good and well that asbestos
fibers posed a significant health risk and that they failed to inform the
poorly educated workers that worked with it. They lied. Much like the
tobacco industry lied for all of those years.
The long and the short of it is that I do not trust what industry
generally has to say about their own products. Which brings me back to th=
e
purpose of my initial query. Does anyone have any information, behind the
anecdotal type or that generated by the industry itself, that specifies t=
he
increased propensity that one may, or may not, incurr if one is exposed
either advertently, or inadvertently, over the short and long haul, to
ceramic insulating fiber dust, either fired or unfired? Thankyou
Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 St.
Houston, TX 77008
(713) 861-2083
-----Original Message-----
From: mel jacobson
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Monday, April 16, 2001 6:49 AM
Subject: s/cracks/fibre(double rant)


>let us not go nuts about fibre. kaowool does irritate the throat
>when you handle it. be careful. it does not fly around and kill
>you. i would be concerned if i worked with it every day. building
>kilns for geil, or working in a factory. but, the casual use of
>it to build a small raku kiln, line some things...god, you will be
>fine. just use your mask when you fluff it, mess with it. then
>leave it alone. be careful. folks have been using it just fine
>for 40 years. no damage done.
>don't do chicken little..the earth is falling.
>
>remember, it was the asbestos workers that died...working
>with asbestos 50 hours a week, day in and day out. if you
>touched a piece of asbestos once in your life...it did not jump
>up and choke you to death.
>
>it is like the firestone tires...did the cars just turn upside
>down by themselves? no, it was a group of idiots in suv's,
>driving a hundred miles an hour on a desert road at 100 degrees F.
>with off road tires. no seat belt on. does that mean we all
>die if we buy firestone tires?...well of course not. \ `but, wally,
>those tires look so cool, so big, makes me feel tough.`
>
>common sense rules these issues...but there is not much of it
>left...remember, it is our law suits that cause the government
>to regulate everything. use your brain, take care of yourself.
>don't wrap yourself in saran wrap..it is stupid.
>
>i have mentioned often on this list that s cracking for me has
>always been in high talc, or super fine bodies. it never happens
>to me with my normal stoneware clay. i have always used an
>open body with some sand and grog. (fine grog) i hump throw
>often, cone my clay a bit, but the body is made to be open, and
>not s crack. i do not have to compress my fingers bloody.
>
>there are bodies out there that are prone to s cracks. it is
>in the quick drying and of course the way the platlettes are set up.
>i have tested many bodies for s cracking....if it occurs, the potter
>must take steps to correct it...like coning, like compressing a great
>deal, or as nils does...REVERSE YOUR LUMP. yes, center your lump
>and then wire if off, turn it upside down...re center, no s cracks.
>this technique causes the clay to do as vince just told us yesterday.
>it re arranges the platlettes.
>
>personally i would never have a clay body around that continued
>to s crack...i would modify it. some of you cannot do that, and
>ron has pointed out, you may create a clay body to do other things.
>like, color, texture etc. i respect that. if you do that however,
>learn to do the things that adjust for cracking...that is hard work,
>and you will have losses. (but, for some, the quality is worth it.)
>so be it. of course there are those that have a worthless clay
>body, use it for 40 years, have huge losses,and just keep using
>it. whine at least every time they open a kiln. `BUT, I LOVE
>BUFFIE STONE, IT IS MY BODY, if feels just like baby pooh.` stupid.
>mel
>i once had 26 kiln shelves crack.
>sued them...got my money back.
>they all denied it though...it was my
>fault. my first set of shelves lasted
>25 years...still have them at the farm.
>these lasted about five firings. i guess it was
>my fault. shame. (now, that is the proper use
>of the law. no one would help me. so..wham, i only
>wanted my money back..not a million dollars.)
>mel
>
>
>From:
>Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
>web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
>________________________________________________________________________=
___
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>

ferenc jakab on tue 17 apr 01


My son
> in law lost his mother to lung cancer at the age of 52 a few months ago.
She
> never smoked either. The cause, the asbestos mat at the end of her ironing
> board!
>
> Take all care in the use of CF its not a friendly material and should be
> treated with utmost respect.

The wife of a worker in the electricity generation industry here in Oz has
just received a compensation award for contracting mesothelioma from the
dust on his clothes, which she washed for him daily for twenty years. A lot
of asbestos was used for steam pipe lagging.
Feri.