Sam Wild on thu 8 feb 01
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:56 PM
Subject: Some advice in clay diplomacy please.
> People, not strangers, not friends, sort of vague aquaintances are
> forever 'ordering' stuff from me. I know that they can't afford to pay
> for these things and I, who am trying to earn an income from clay,
> really cannot afford to give them these things. I do and I have, but I
> get resentful. Giving someone a gift of my making because I WANT
> to or trading for something, is a whole other matter.
> What can I say to people like this, without being offensive? Even if I
> FEEL like being offensive
> Toni Martens, South Africa who needs to develop a diplomatic
> business mindset.
>
>Generally when I sell to someone who I know socially or who I have dealings
with, like my mechanic, my wife's boss's wife or the UPS man, I give them
20% off. It makes them feel good and I look at this type of sale as one I
wouldn't have made if they didn't already know me. I think if you offer
them 20% off they will know that they are going to have to pay for it. It's
hard to complain about the price if your getting a discount. If its more
than they want to pay they can say no thanks. Also ask for a deposit, and
give them a receipt that states the full price, the discount and the
balance.
Also don't take orders that are too far removed from what you are all
ready doing, like a hand built pot when you only throw or a glaze or color
that you have never used before.
Sam Wild
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
africaunusual@MWEB.CO.ZA on thu 8 feb 01
People, not strangers, not friends, sort of vague aquaintances are
forever 'ordering' stuff from me. I know that they can't afford to pay
for these things and I, who am trying to earn an income from clay,
really cannot afford to give them these things. I do and I have, but I
get resentful. Giving someone a gift of my making because I WANT
to or trading for something, is a whole other matter.
What can I say to people like this, without being offensive? Even if I
FEEL like being offensive
Toni Martens, South Africa who needs to develop a diplomatic
business mindset.
Cindy Strnad on thu 8 feb 01
Hi, Toni.
Not knowing your culture, I can't advise you in that context. But off the
cuff, I'd say that when someone makes an order, you should fill out a simple
order form for them, detailing the price, and explain that you require
payment in advance for orders. To keep from putting the person on the spot,
you can explain that when they are ready, they can get the money to you and
you'll begin work on their order. Then thank them for their business and
offer them a cup of tea and change the subject.
Cindy Strnad
Earthen Vessels Pottery
RR 1, Box 51
Custer, SD 57730
USA
earthenv@gwtc.net
http://www.earthenvesselssd.com
Marie Gibbons on thu 8 feb 01
Toni,
I think we have all been in this type of position.... it is a hard one to
deal with, and after many unwanted / uneeded / untimely trades, and such I
came to the response of right now i am in a space where i need to try to
make as many sales as possible... when I have the flexibility to be able to
trade I would love to talk again....
Marie
www.oooladies.com
In a message dated 2/8/01 8:56:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,
africaunusual@MWEB.CO.ZA writes:
> People, not strangers, not friends, sort of vague aquaintances are
> forever 'ordering' stuff from me. I know that they can't afford to pay
> for these things and I, who am trying to earn an income from clay,
> really cannot afford to give them these things. I do and I have, but I
> get resentful. Giving someone a gift of my making because I WANT
> to or trading for something, is a whole other matter.
> What can I say to people like this, without being offensive? Even if I
> FEEL like being offensive
> Toni Martens, South Africa who needs to develop a diplomatic
> business mindset.
>
Alps of Culross Studios on thu 8 feb 01
No! is a good answer :)
Aley
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:56 PM
Subject: Some advice in clay diplomacy please.
> People, not strangers, not friends, sort of vague aquaintances are
> forever 'ordering' stuff from me. I know that they can't afford to pay
> for these things and I, who am trying to earn an income from clay,
> really cannot afford to give them these things. I do and I have, but I
> get resentful. Giving someone a gift of my making because I WANT
> to or trading for something, is a whole other matter.
> What can I say to people like this, without being offensive? Even if I
> FEEL like being offensive
> Toni Martens, South Africa who needs to develop a diplomatic
> business mindset.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Dannon Rhudy on thu 8 feb 01
At 08:56 AM 2/8/01 +0500, you wrote:
>People, ... sort of vague aquaintances are
>forever 'ordering' stuff .... they can't afford to pay
.... and I,...>really cannot afford to give them ...
When these persons say "I want to order" whatever it is,
smile - and say immediately "I could have that for you
at such/such a date. The cost is so/so, and for special
orders I must have $X in advance, because of my costs for
materials, etc. etc. The rest is due on delivery, I can
accept cash or checks or what have you.
You might be a bit uncomfortable, but why should you work
for them for nothing? It is only sensible to set parameters,
they would no doubt do the same. They must be aware you
are not making fortunes - perhaps they do intend to pay.
If they can't afford it, they'll back out or never come
up with the advance amount. In which case, don't make the
piece(s) or you will end up giving it to them for nothing.
Again.
You already knew all this - don't be so chicken- hearted!
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Philip Poburka on thu 8 feb 01
Dear Toni,
I sympathize with the vexation...though for me, it were usually 'friends'
and well established 'aquaintences' who sought or were trying to obliquely
coerce 'courtesies' as though to prove the parable of 'The Golden Goose'.
Some people cannot seem to help themselves in these matters...they will not
be Honorable, no matter how 'easy' it would be to do so.
These were exploitive abuses of my friendship, and I have pretty well put an
end to it.
'People' on the other hand...I tell 'em, I have a, or 'the' POLICY that is
transcendent to my 'personal' inclinations...which requires a non-refundable
'deposit' (usually 50 percent)to be made in order for me to produce the
thing they want me to build.
And a 'progress-payment or twenty-five percent as I approach the halfway
point.
'Balence' ON "COMPLETION" when THEY come get the thing...if I 'deliver' I
get PAID to 'do' that.
AND I have a clear concise written description of WHAT and the particulars
of 'what' I will 'do'.
This has worked well.
And for 'speculative' work, as I may have 'laying-around'...I tell 'em, yes
"You can buy this"....all you have to 'do' is PAY ME, and it may be yours!
IN-THAT-ORDER!
Or 'trade' me something I want, could use or may like...even as to trade me
their 'labor' for some chores.
It is funny...I am very flexable...and for some, no accomidation is good
enough!
If someone 'really' is IN good faith...we will wllways find a way.
If in bad faith, nothing seems to work except ripping me off.
Many times I had said, 'Sure...and you will do something for me later, or
give me something I may want, which you do not need...'
AND 9 out of ten times...I got 'stiffed' where NOTHING could be selected as
recompense...even the things they were about to take to the Dump...they
would equivicate, and wring their hands, and not let me 'have' ANYTHING as
'trade' for what I did, or 'gave' them.
Aweful!
THIS 'in' my 'Community' here...with people who were 'short' on Cash, or
claimed to be...
NO MORE!
Live and learn!
I do keep these communications 'up-beat' with rare exception.
AND I tell them pretty straight too.
Also at my discretion...I will sometimes execute a commision and just ship
the thing with the understanding that they will pay me when they get it.
Never had a 'stiff' in this, but ALLWAYS this is a gamble based on my
evaluation of them, or of the 'vibe'.
Whether they ARE a 'Gentleman', or a 'Lady'...many are.
So called 'friends' used to drive me into paroxisms of frustration with
their sense of 'entitlement' TO my time, resources, skills, products etc.,
when they give/gave nothing of value, other than to flatter me all the time.
Not good!
Some of them, I read the 'riot-act' to...
Tlaked to them VERY 'straaight'.
That felt good.
"Good-bye you Galoots!"
No more 'Golden Eggs' for them!
Good Luck!
Phil
------Original Message------
From: africaunusual@MWEB.CO.ZA
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: February 8, 2001 3:56:43 AM GMT
Subject: Some advice in clay diplomacy please.
People, not strangers, not friends, sort of vague aquaintances are
forever 'ordering' stuff from me. I know that they can't afford to pay
for these things and I, who am trying to earn an income from clay,
really cannot afford to give them these things. I do and I have, but I
get resentful. Giving someone a gift of my making because I WANT
to or trading for something, is a whole other matter.
What can I say to people like this, without being offensive? Even if I
FEEL like being offensive
Toni Martens, South Africa who needs to develop a diplomatic
business mindset.
______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Diane Mead on thu 8 feb 01
Hi Toni:
Diane in Ga here.
You can say exactly what you said to us.
You are making a living with your clay.
They would not expect you to do their
taxes for them gratis....
Your work is valuable and you make a price tag for it.
diane
>From: africaunusual@MWEB.CO.ZA
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Some advice in clay diplomacy please.
>Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:56:43 +0500
>
>People, not strangers, not friends, sort of vague aquaintances are
>forever 'ordering' stuff from me. I know that they can't afford to pay
>for these things and I, who am trying to earn an income from clay,
>really cannot afford to give them these things. I do and I have, but I
>get resentful. Giving someone a gift of my making because I WANT
>to or trading for something, is a whole other matter.
>What can I say to people like this, without being offensive? Even if I
>FEEL like being offensive
>Toni Martens, South Africa who needs to develop a diplomatic
>business mindset.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Milton Markey on thu 8 feb 01
Hi Toni!
When you say "ordering" do you mean they place an order for a certain pot?
That is the time you tell them the price of the ware they want.
Don't worry about their feelings about this--you are in the business of
making wares from clay. If you want to be respected as a business person,
you'll need to assert yourself.
Best wishes!
Milton NakedClay@AOL.COM
Janet Kaiser on fri 9 feb 01
Dear Toni
You mean apart from hardening your soft heart
and throwing a royal tantrum or the mother of
all fits?
What you could do, Toni, is say you would love
to give them your work, but they will no doubt
absolutely understand that it is your only
source of income and your job (even if you do
work from home in these hard times). You need to
work to keep a roof over your head and feed
yourselves now hubby is... (you fill in the sob
story bit). This is all said in earnest and
serious tones until you have them nodding
agreement.
However (and here you can flash a sunny smile),
to show them that you are truly forthcoming and
generous, you will sell your work to them "at
cost price". That is the least you can do for
them, given their straightened circumstances...
You then go through a whole serious spiel (and
flight of fantasy if necessary) on what the item
has cost you in real terms to make (materials,
utilities, time, etc.) which adds up to a Rand
(at most) less than the price on the sticker...
You have naturally already set this price to
include the odd Rand and accommodate this sort
of "friendly acquaintance".
If they look dubious, expand on the cost of
importing rare minerals and ingredients from
Outer Mongolia.
Still dubious? Offer the content of your seconds
shelf as an alternative...
I would never make to order in such a situation.
You are dealing with a different cultural
background in South Africa which no doubt
colours the picture beyond my experience, but I
do not personally believe that people who order
work from an artist or maker are so naive as to
think it has cost nothing to make and only do so
because they cannot afford to buy it elsewhere.
Even in deepest Africa they surely know that a
Made in China mug is going to be cheaper?
If anyone is truly poor, they can buy it in a
penny store or charity shop or even do without
if it is a luxury item like a toothbrush holder.
In my experience, the genuinely Poor Person does
not flaunt their poverty in any way. Sorry if I
am wrong, but to get around the problem as you
describe it, I think that is the sort of
attitude to take.
Good luck with diplomacy... I have to laugh
though...
Me! Advising on diplomacy!?!??? HaHaHa!
Janet Kaiser
The Chapel of Art . Capel Celfyddyd
HOME OF THE INTERNATIONAL POTTERS' PATH
Criccieth LL52 0EA, GB-Wales Tel: (01766) 523570
E-mail: postbox@the-coa.org.uk
WEBSITE: http://www.the-coa.org.uk
----- Original Message -----
> People, not strangers, not friends, sort of
vague aquaintances are
> forever 'ordering' stuff from me. I know that
they can't afford to pay
> for these things and I, who am trying to earn
an income from clay,
> really cannot afford to give them these
things. I do and I have, but I
> get resentful. Giving someone a gift of my
making because I WANT
> to or trading for something, is a whole other
matter.
> What can I say to people like this, without
being offensive? Even if I
> FEEL like being offensive
> Toni Martens, South Africa who needs to
develop a diplomatic
> business mindset.
| |
|
