Norman van der Sluys on thu 24 aug 00
Lois Ruben Aronow wrote:
> Lauren -
>
>
> But if someone was given the wrong bag of clay, I'd call it an
> accident. It happens. It's unfortunate, but it does. They don't
> want it to happen any more than you do.
> (snip)
> Regarding the candling, well, accidents do happen and things don't
> always run as we would hope.
(snip)
Of course accidents happen, and no one believes these occurrances were deliberate.
What disturbs me is the attitude that the institution involved should not have to
bear the burden of these accidents. In the business world they would be expected
to. Perhaps academia is so used to comfortable salaries and tenure that the idea of
taking responsibility is foreign to them. On an educational note, the greatest
difficulty for me in learning my craft has been the time grap between the initial
forming and examining the finished product. Going through the motions without
getting the feedback of examining the finished product is of questionable value in
a workshop situation. It interests me that several people have responded with
inuendoes about students taking worskhops just to use equipment i.e. there
interest was in production, not learning. This kind of attitude on the part of an
instructor is bound to take away from the educational value of the workshop, and is
very unprofessional. It also reminds me of the many times I have heard working
studio potters complain about the academes who don't have to pay for materials or a
studio, and then sell pots at unfairly low prices!
> And now for my query: Is it just me that's bothered by the fact many
> people take workshops just to learn how to make the work of other
> potters? Do people really take Malcom Davis' workshop (with all due
> respect to Malcom) to learn the subtleties of carbon trapping, or do
> they just want to put HIS glaze on THEIR pots, fire it HIS way, and
> then say "look how beautiful my pot is?" --
I think that often the first step in learning a technique is to copy an example. As
one continues to practice the technique one makes "it his own." Certainly there are
some who never get farther than the copying stage, but in fact, all's fair in love,
war, and art.
Norman van der Sluys
by the shore of Lake Michigan thinking about eating one more peach before bedtime.
Lois Ruben Aronow on thu 24 aug 00
Lauren -=20
Sorry you had such a bad experience at Peter's Valley. I took a
workshop there in June that was positively life and work changing
(which is another story - keep reading)! Food was great. Staff was
terrific. Class size is totally manageable - there was loads of
individual attention. The assistants went overboard to help us all
out. I'm taking another workshop there next week, and am really
looking forward to it. =20
The reason I mention the above is because our workshop had a student
enrolled who was a total menace. Although this person was later
removed from the premises (never to return to PV, i'm told) this
person put undue stress on the instructor (who had never done a US
workshop before - and was truly tested with this one), the director,
the assistants, and, well, virtually everyone. The PV staff were
TERRIFIC with all of us - including this disturbed, ill, unstable
person - and showed great patience, humour, and spirit. It was an
uncomfortable situation, and PV dealt with it with grace (or so it
seemed to many of us).
The one thing that puzzles me, though. When you purchase clay from
PV, it is from Standard Ceramic. We purchased ours by the box
(mostly). Didn't ANYONE - students and teachers alike - check the
boxes? The numbers are printed big and bold on them, along with the
firing temperature range. Did the bisque ware of the stoneware look
different from the earthenware? Did anyone notice this? =20
PV charges NO markup on the cost of clay. Indeed, we were welcome to
bring our own, as long as we called in advance to find out which clay
the class would be using. If it was kiln loads of stuff that was
ruined, this would certainly be a shocking an unacceptable situation.
But if someone was given the wrong bag of clay, I'd call it an
accident. It happens. It's unfortunate, but it does. They don't
want it to happen any more than you do. After all, it is the sort of
accident that ruins kiln shelves and makes extra work for everyone.
Regarding the candling, well, accidents do happen and things don't
always run as we would hope. Just witness the great number of posts
on Clayart from people saying "What went wrong?!". And many of these
are from experienced potters. I don't know when your workshop was,
but the past month has been extremely wet and rainy in the NE, which
contributes to the challenge of drying ware quickly.
And now for my query: Is it just me that's bothered by the fact many
people take workshops just to learn how to make the work of other
potters? Do people really take Malcom Davis' workshop (with all due
respect to Malcom) to learn the subtleties of carbon trapping, or do
they just want to put HIS glaze on THEIR pots, fire it HIS way, and
then say "look how beautiful my pot is?" In my mind, this isn't
*really* learning. I mention this because the workshop I took was
about YOU and the CLAY and your MIND and your HANDS. I expected the
instructor would show us how he made his pots, and then we would make
his pots, as usually happens (in my experience). But this workshop
(Takeshi Yasuda, who could start his own religion) was more about
seeing pots and pieces and your body and your work. We didn't take
home any pieces, but many of us learned to look (and feel) our pots
and our methods in very different ways. I could go on forever about
it. I learned how to make MY pots. From now on, I will be looking
for more analytical and perspective oriented classes and workshops. =20
mudslingers@ATT.NET on fri 25 aug 00
Lois Ruben Aronow wrote:
> Food was great.
I agree!
>Staff was terrific.
Especially Jennifer.
Let me make it clear: I have enjoyed Peters Valley and
in general, it is a wonderful place to be. My post was
pertinent only to the way these 2 particular incidents
were handled by the PV management (not the staff). But
let me clarify some of your questions...
> The one thing that puzzles me, though. When you
purchase clay from
> PV, it is from Standard Ceramic. We purchased ours by
the box
> (mostly). Didn't ANYONE - students and teachers
alike - check the
> boxes? The numbers are printed big and bold on them,
along with the
> firing temperature range. Did the bisque ware of the
stoneware look
> different from the earthenware? Did anyone notice
this?
In this case, students purchased clay by the bag, not
the box, so those who bought clay didn't even see the
boxes. Apparently, the boxes were checked afterwards by
the staff, who noticed that earthenware clay was
missing. The students were asked if anybody had taken
clay on their own because 3 bags of earthenware were
gone. Of course none of the students "took" their own
clay. They were handed the bags. One of the students
even commented that her clay felt different, but no one
followed up. And yes, you would think that someone would
check everyone's clay once they realized a mix up "may"
have occurred. But that didn't happen.
No, the bisque did not look different (but not expecting
to see differences, probably no one looked closely).
>Indeed, we were welcome to
> bring our own, as long as we called in advance to find
out which clay
> the class would be using.
That's true. Fortunately, I did bring my own clay and so
was lucky to have some pieces to take home.
Unfortunately, I think that worked against my suggestion
of a future discount. I was reminded of this fact in a
way that implied: "You had success, what are YOU
complaining about?"
>If it was kiln loads of stuff that was
> ruined, this would certainly be a shocking an
unacceptable situation
It WAS! Count them: 2 -- bisque and glaze.
>I'd call it an
> accident. It happens. It's unfortunate, but it does
...
>accidents do happen and things don't
> always run as we would hope.
I agree that accidents happen. The issue is, it's a
business. And how many businesses or services that we
pay good money for could get away with an answer of "it
was an accident"?
In any case, thanks for your post. maybe I'll see you
there next year...
Lauren
mudslingers@att.net
http://mudslingers.home.att.net
Gail Dapogny on fri 25 aug 00
>Of course accidents happen, and no one believes these occurrances were
>deliberate.
>What disturbs me is the attitude that the institution involved should not
>have to
>bear the burden of these accidents. In the business world they would be
>expected
>to. Perhaps academia is so used to comfortable salaries and tenure that
>the idea of
>taking responsibility is foreign to them.
Everything that Norman (and Vince,Paul, Janet, and Mel, etc.) said seems to
me to be sound and thoughtful. They took no responsibility for their poor
product. When you pay big bucks for a week at a well known workshop, the
least you expect is quality and care and preparation. This one clearly
didn't even come close.
But what I believe bothers most of us, is the unmistakeable arrogance of
the people in charge. All of the "pleasant" experiences of others in the
past don't erase the fact that they made incompetent mistakes in this
workshop and then blew you off. If they haven't learned anything else,
perhaps our comments on their inexcusable attitude will possibly have
taught them the value of courtesy.
--Gail
Gail Dapogny
1154 Olden Road
Ann Arbor, MI 48103-3005
(734) 665-9816
gdapogny@umich.edu
www.silverhawk.com/ex99/dapogny
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