MOORE, Robert J. on thu 18 feb 99
Myself and three other potters are considering ordering a ton of clay from
Laguna. I searched the archives for posts regarding their clays. B-Mix
seemed to be the clay with possible drawbacks involved, at least for some
people. Could anyone using Laguna clays please respond to me and give me
their feelings on the clays they have used from Laguna and the service they
received. I would greatly appreciate any feedback on this issue.
Robert Moore
rjmoore2@ius.edu
Potting in Southern Indiana
Dave Finkelnburg on fri 19 feb 99
Here in the West, I suspect we get clay from a different source than you
will (Ours comes out of L.A.). I use Gray Calico exclusively, which is a
very forgiving, cone 5 (will actually fire to cone 10 though) clay with
fairly high shrinkage (15%) minimum. I can bisque it fairly fast (have had
problems with dunting from Rod's Bod, as I have heard is an issue with
B-Mix. Calico has a fair % of grog, so it's good for fairly large pieces,
will tolerate a wide range of moisture so it can be reworked a lot. It,
however, is not a very plastic body, in the sense that Rod's Bod or Laguna's
Red Calico is.
I have tried a few bags of their Red Calico and found it to be quite
plastic, less grogged, quite sensitive to moisture content as far as
throwing characteristics, wet strength.
You may want to ask Laguna directly about differences in the clay which
you would receive--is it coming to you from New York clay sources, etc.
versus what I have seen.
Hope this is of some small assistance.
Dave in Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: MOORE, Robert J.
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 12:42 PM
Subject: Laguna Clay Opinions?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Myself and three other potters are considering ordering a ton of clay from
Laguna. I searched the archives for posts regarding their clays. B-Mix
seemed to be the clay with possible drawbacks involved, at least for some
people. Could anyone using Laguna clays please respond to me and give me
their feelings on the clays they have used from Laguna and the service they
received. I would greatly appreciate any feedback on this issue.
Robert Moore
rjmoore2@ius.edu
Potting in Southern Indiana
Keith Chervenak on fri 19 feb 99
Hi Robert,
I use Laguna clay. The local distribution center in this area is Cambridge
OH, I'm in Cleveland. Service from this center has been pretty good-Matt
Morris is the rep. The biggest drawback about Laguna here in the Midwest
is that (most)everything is shipped from the west coast (their Miller clays
come from the east). Any price per pound in the catalog requires an
additional $.05 to cover the shipping from their west coast facility to
Ohio and then whatever shipping cost is involved from Cambridge to your
door. Also, the Cambridge facility does not seem to stock alot of clay and
all of my orders have always taken weeks. Now the good news: I do like
their clay. I handbuild so I can't speak to how it throws but my favorites
are LB Blend (cone 10, I fire it in reduction) and Industrial Raku. Their
Electric Brown is a very nice cone 6 oxidation clay with a great chocolate
color. I've tried one of their cone 10 sample packs of about ten clays and
found them all to be too groggy for my taste. I'm currently playing with
the Moroccan Sand cone 5 which I'n finding to be too wet and I have the B
mix cone 5 but haven't gotten into that yet. I know potters here that like
the Cone 10 Bmix, they throw and fire in reduction. Finally, I use a
Miller low fire red clay, EM 106, which is very nice to handbuild with.
It's a little more expensive than the Laguna reds. Just so your not
confused; Laguna bought out Miller but still sells the Miller clay with the
Miller name. Least that is what I was told.
I hope this is helpful.
Keith
In Ohio hoping the skies clear by NCECA time!
Keith Chervenak
kac2@po.cwru.edu
216-368-4944
Case Western Reserve University
Department of Medicine
Division of Infectious Diseases
Cleveland, Ohio U.S.A.
Phyllis E. Tilton on fri 19 feb 99
Hi: Regarding Laguna clay, I have used several and really have settled on B-
Mix. The ^5 is what I use at home in my studio. At the Cultural Art Center, I
use B-Mix ^10 because of the gas kiln there.
When using either of the clays, it is necessary to let dry slowly and
thoroughly. I knew this but pushed the envelope before Christmas at home and
had some pieces crack. My fault. At home, I use Laguna glazes because I have
learned that their glazes must have been developed to fit their clay bodies. I
don't have room to store chemicals to make glazes. At the Center, we are kind
of required to use the glazes that are mixed there. I have had different
results with their glazes having done a number of test pieces. I have asked
to mix some tests of some of the glazes that have been posted and they said
OK. They have to have rules such as that because of the number of people that
go thru the system and I understand that. They also don't want people using
commercial glazes in the gas kiln. Too many variables, I guess, because of not
knowing the chemical content.
Phyllis Tilton
Daisypet@aol.com
In Columbus, Ohio, where all we potters are excited about NCECA, I am eager to
meet Clayart people and attach faces to the names!!
The Brinks on fri 19 feb 99
Robert- I have used Laguna's Danish White w/sand for years, firing ^7-8
oxidation. I really like it. Recently I've tried B-mix and found it to be a
little touchier about wanting even drying. Even had some bowl bottoms
crack. This never happened w/ Danish white, and yes, I think my technique
on bottom thickness and compression is ok. DW used to be one of the
Westwood clays; Laguna bought them out about 7-8 ? years ago. A friend of
mine used Danish White without sand, but her line of pots is smaller than
mine. I know B-mix has gotten really popular. Might be a matter of the
feel I'm used to, but I find B-mix a little flabby. I would recommend that
you 4 potters all try various clays before you buy a ton of it. Maybe you
have, but I didn't get that from your post.
Ann in CA
At 07:38 AM 2/18/1999 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Myself and three other potters are considering ordering a ton of clay from
>Laguna. I searched the archives for posts regarding their clays. B-Mix
>seemed to be the clay with possible drawbacks involved, at least for some
>people. Could anyone using Laguna clays please respond to me and give me
>their feelings on the clays they have used from Laguna and the service they
>received. I would greatly appreciate any feedback on this issue.
>
>Robert Moore
>rjmoore2@ius.edu
>Potting in Southern Indiana
>
>
e-mail billann@impulse.net
gburning.mail on fri 19 feb 99
We use alot of Laguna clay every year in a high school situation. We have tried
all kinds of clay bodies and have settled on Laguna Soldate 60 as our best bet
for all-around everyday clay. It fires to a cone 10 with a nice toasty glow in
reduction and is a little reminiscent of the old Sandstone buff in oxidation.
It stands up real well to thermal shock in raku firings, is patient and
forgiving to beginning potters with too much water and too much time to spend
on each pot as well as providing a decent sculpting body. Works great for us
in a high school studio with a wide range of potters and abilities and
interests. I like it well enough to order about eight tons a year. No
remuneration here, just a satisfied pottery teacher with alot of happy
students.
MOORE, Robert J. wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Myself and three other potters are considering ordering a ton of clay from
> Laguna. I searched the archives for posts regarding their clays. B-Mix
> seemed to be the clay with possible drawbacks involved, at least for some
> people. Could anyone using Laguna clays please respond to me and give me
> their feelings on the clays they have used from Laguna and the service they
> received. I would greatly appreciate any feedback on this issue.
>
> Robert Moore
> rjmoore2@ius.edu
> Potting in Southern Indiana
Andi Cody on fri 19 feb 99
We like Rod's Bod, Rod's-90, Amador (nice light reddish/gold) and half and
half. In fact, we like all of these so well for throwing that we can't
decide on one to use. I don't care for B-mix, my husband kinda likes it.
Andi in San Diego, where it's foggy and cool today and I wish I were at
home making pots.
At 07:38 AM 2/18/99 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Myself and three other potters are considering ordering a ton of clay from
>Laguna. I searched the archives for posts regarding their clays. B-Mix
>seemed to be the clay with possible drawbacks involved, at least for some
>people. Could anyone using Laguna clays please respond to me and give me
>their feelings on the clays they have used from Laguna and the service they
>received. I would greatly appreciate any feedback on this issue.
>
>Robert Moore
>rjmoore2@ius.edu
>Potting in Southern Indiana
>
Beth Ward on fri 19 feb 99
I used to buy a lot of stuff from Laguna but don't anymore.
Their customer service when it comes to clay is a joke. I had a friend who
worked at the Denver store and she said when people complained about the
hardness of the clay, they would make fun of them after they left. When
someone wanted to feel clay they would run in back and drop it on the floor a
couple times so it felt softer than it really was.
The owners of Laguana don't make pottery and have no real concept of what
potter's need.
I bought a ton of a clay called 1/2 and 1/2 from them. I usually make pretty
big stuff. The clay was really hard. In Colorado it is so dry, that hard clay
becomes even harder in minutes. The guy that worked behind the counter told me
to take a broom handle and poke a hole in the clay and fill it with
water!!!!!!! I told him I had 80 bags of hard clay and they were basically
jerks about it.
The half and half does not have enough frit it in either and it is porous
unless it is glazed.
They had some good people working there for a while. Jim Cooper built the
kiln I have and knew his butt from shortstop. When he sold the store to
Laguna, the new manager fired him because everyone thought he was the
boss......
I would stay away from that place simply because it is run by people of
dubious character...
Beth....
Vicki Katz on fri 19 feb 99
I have used Laguna for my Cone 5-6 work for years. I have not had problems
with B-mix, but have read that other Clayarter's have. I have used Speckled
Buff & 1/2-1/2.
I have heard that they will sell you a "test package" of samples - just a
thought before you invest in a ton of clay. Good luck.
Vicki Katz
Ilene Mahler on fri 19 feb 99
I have been using Laguna clay for a while and have been very pleased.They
have a researchand question dept and I spent about an hour and a half
trying to make one of there claAYS TO DO WHAT i WANTED AND NOT EXACTLY WHAT
IT WAS DESIGNED FOR.The service has been good mailing samples of new (to
Me) clay bodies and then purchasing them from my local distributer..With
one location in Calf then in Ohio and in up state new york they are spread
out across the country..You can order sample clays white mix, porcelain
and then brown all in a sample box of a # of different kinds..I am
presently using...porcelain 5 (cone 5) bmix (cone 10) and 900 (cone 10)
and big white for large Raku any other help please call fax or e-mail and
I will be glad to share...860-232-9051 in conn fax 860-232-9051 Ilene
At 07:38 AM 2/18/99 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Myself and three other potters are considering ordering a ton of clay from
>Laguna. I searched the archives for posts regarding their clays. B-Mix
>seemed to be the clay with possible drawbacks involved, at least for some
>people. Could anyone using Laguna clays please respond to me and give me
>their feelings on the clays they have used from Laguna and the service they
>received. I would greatly appreciate any feedback on this issue.
>
>Robert Moore
>rjmoore2@ius.edu
>Potting in Southern Indiana
>
>
Mike Gordon on fri 19 feb 99
Robert,
I've been using Rods Bod and Soldate 60 from Laguna for 15 yrs. or more
and am quite satisfied. They both throw good and thequality is OK.
Sometimes I've found the Rods Bod to be pretty stiff, but usable if you
like it like that, and the Soldate I got recently must have been the
batch that pushed out the Soldate 30 which is sandier. Still ok Hope
this helps, Mike
Donn Buchfinck on sat 20 feb 99
Laguna is a big / big / big company, and as such has some problems associated
with big companies.
they want to cut costs to raise their profit margin
they buy large quantities of materials and the materials can vary
they use sub par materials hoping to get away with it, since they won't tell
you the recipe they can change whatever they want to change, they reserve the
right to do this.
sometimes the mix can have the wrong stuff in it, all those brown bags look
alike.
there have been some problems with their clays, but on the most part I think
that people like them.
I think that if you have tight standards, or you do not have any wiggle room
with how you glaze fits the clay then you could have problems.
ultimatly clay changes.
if you do have problems just remember YOU ARE NOT ALONE
a lot of people have had problems at one time or another with clay.
I have never had problems with clay that I have made myself, er except when I
was getting calcium pop outs from hawthorn bond fireclay. And I thought I
didn't have problems.
the best way to mix clay, if you are going to use a lot is to either
mix it yourself or
be there at the factory when it is mixed
I have a earthenware body that I used to get from laguna and they changed it
and discontinued it so I have to have it mixed. So I have my clay mixed by
someone who can mix a ton at a time. And pug it for me.
I can BE THERE for the mixing
this is the best way to deal with the clay problem
maybe you should get together with your friends and invest in an old dough
mixer
it is what I have found that makes great clay
hope it all works out
Donn Buchfinck
Barb & Ray Sapergia on sat 20 feb 99
Just thought I'd add my 2 cents in here - I've been using Laguna's B-Mix ^10
exclusively for 3 years and haven't experienced any problems with it. I pug
(de-airing Vanco) all my clay before throwing, mixing old with new quite
often. I have had no s-cracks and no warping. I throw medium-sized functional
stoneware, (mugs, jugs, casseroles, etc) and really like the pure white fired
colour. I find it really brightens up some of my glazes over the clay I had
been using previously. I have been making pots for 21 years, and switched to
B-Mix from a white Plainsman body because of all kinds of bloating, pinholing,
and cracking that I couldn't fix in a body of theirs that I had been using for a
looooong time. I have also used Death Valley Red and liked it a lot too, but
switched to only B-Mix to simplify my production.
I also have to say that my experience with the folks at Laguna in California has
been a positive one. I have had a few questions and they have always responded
in a courteous helpful way.
Hope this helps,
Barb
paul on sat 20 feb 99
Has anyone else had problems with lime pop outs? I am using Laguna EM106
clay. I am getting BB size white chunks from the clay and am finding them
at every stage of the process. I am not the only potter in my area that is
having this problem with the Laguna/Miller clay. Has this problem been
experienced with any of Laguna's other clays that people are using? I
personally like Matt Morris but have not been satisfied with his answers to
this problem which made me switch to Standards white earthenware and I am
now testing their red clays.
Paul Wilmoth
earthenware, and wood/salt stoneware
pwearthenware@email.msn.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Chervenak
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: Laguna Clay Opinions?
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Hi Robert,
I use Laguna clay. The local distribution center in this area is Cambridge
OH, I'm in Cleveland. Service from this center has been pretty good-Matt
Morris is the rep. The biggest drawback about Laguna here in the Midwest
is that (most)everything is shipped from the west coast (their Miller clays
come from the east). Any price per pound in the catalog requires an
additional $.05 to cover the shipping from their west coast facility to
Ohio and then whatever shipping cost is involved from Cambridge to your
door. Also, the Cambridge facility does not seem to stock alot of clay and
all of my orders have always taken weeks. Now the good news: I do like
their clay. I handbuild so I can't speak to how it throws but my favorites
are LB Blend (cone 10, I fire it in reduction) and Industrial Raku. Their
Electric Brown is a very nice cone 6 oxidation clay with a great chocolate
color. I've tried one of their cone 10 sample packs of about ten clays and
found them all to be too groggy for my taste. I'm currently playing with
the Moroccan Sand cone 5 which I'n finding to be too wet and I have the B
mix cone 5 but haven't gotten into that yet. I know potters here that like
the Cone 10 Bmix, they throw and fire in reduction. Finally, I use a
Miller low fire red clay, EM 106, which is very nice to handbuild with.
It's a little more expensive than the Laguna reds. Just so your not
confused; Laguna bought out Miller but still sells the Miller clay with the
Miller name. Least that is what I was told.
I hope this is helpful.
Keith
In Ohio hoping the skies clear by NCECA time!
Keith Chervenak
kac2@po.cwru.edu
216-368-4944
Case Western Reserve University
Department of Medicine
Division of Infectious Diseases
Cleveland, Ohio U.S.A.
hasebe on sun 21 feb 99
Hi, Donn
I recently encountered 1.5mm size whitish stones in a custom clay mixed by
Standard. I learned that they have changed a source of hawthorn bond.
Could you explain more details about "except when I
was getting calcium pop outs from hawthorn bond fireclay.", in terms of
color, particle size, a stage which pops out (greenware, bisque, glaze
firing, after fired),any other defects associated with this, etc.? Any
information on this will be very helpful.
Is Paul Wilmoth's post, "Has anyone else had problems with lime pop outs? I
am getting BB size white chunks from the clay and am finding them at every
stage of the process." the same thing?
--
hasebeh@eznet.net (Hodaka Hasebe)
Pittsford, NY
716-264-9698
----------
>From: Donn Buchfinck
>To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Laguna Clay Opinions?
>Date: Sat, Feb 20, 1999, 12:54 PM
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
> Laguna is a big / big / big company, and as such has some problems associated
> with big companies.
> they want to cut costs to raise their profit margin
> they buy large quantities of materials and the materials can vary
> they use sub par materials hoping to get away with it, since they won't tell
> you the recipe they can change whatever they want to change, they reserve the
> right to do this.
> sometimes the mix can have the wrong stuff in it, all those brown bags look
> alike.
> there have been some problems with their clays, but on the most part I think
> that people like them.
> I think that if you have tight standards, or you do not have any wiggle room
> with how you glaze fits the clay then you could have problems.
> ultimatly clay changes.
> if you do have problems just remember YOU ARE NOT ALONE
> a lot of people have had problems at one time or another with clay.
> I have never had problems with clay that I have made myself, er except when I
> was getting calcium pop outs from hawthorn bond fireclay. And I thought I
> didn't have problems.
> the best way to mix clay, if you are going to use a lot is to either
> mix it yourself or
> be there at the factory when it is mixed
> I have a earthenware body that I used to get from laguna and they changed it
> and discontinued it so I have to have it mixed. So I have my clay mixed by
> someone who can mix a ton at a time. And pug it for me.
> I can BE THERE for the mixing
> this is the best way to deal with the clay problem
> maybe you should get together with your friends and invest in an old dough
> mixer
> it is what I have found that makes great clay
>
> hope it all works out
>
> Donn Buchfinck
>
>
Susan Fox Hirschmann on sun 21 feb 99
For those of you on the east coast, may i suggest.....
Highwater clay company, from Asheville, n.c. that, thus far, as consistently
proven to mix some mighty fine porcelain clay bodies....a small company (in
relative terms to laguna,) that is great to deal with.
susan
susan fox hirschmann
Malone & Dean McRaine on sun 21 feb 99
Aloha all: I've been ordering from Laguna for the 7 years I've bben in
Hawaii. I use their S-60 body for ^10 stoneware and raku. It's been great in
general. Forgiving and easy to throw. I do get occasional cracks in overly
thin areas but that is poor technique on my part. I get infrequent cracks in
raku pots, too but tolerate it for the simplicity of only having 2
claybodies in my studio. I didn't like B-mix either, many flaws. I use
Dave's porcelain for the bulk of my production work and love it. I've
always had great service and tech support from them.
Dean, sleepless in Kauai the wettest spot on earth, or 450 inches equals 37
feet of rain per year. (Only 7 feet at my house)
Susan Fox Hirschmann on mon 22 feb 99
I used miller's porcelain for a very short time---why? becuase of the lime
pops, and even tho fellow potter friends had the same problem with the clay,
they "blamed" it on us!! would you believe they accused us of throwing with
epsom salts and causing the lime pops! so much for their quality control.
Went onto try highwater clays and have been thoroughly pleased with their
grolleg porcelain body. I have used it for several years, despite having to
pay the $100 freight for 1000 lbs from ashville, nc. to here in no. virginia.
To get consistently high quality, it is worth it!
susan
claypots on mon 22 feb 99
------------------
Susan, Campbell Ceramics in Richmond now carries Highwater clay. They =
deliver
to certain areas, but I'm sure the shipping would be cheaper since it would =
be
within the state. If you need their number, e-mail me at
claypots=40lynchburg.net
Debra
.. I have used it for several years, despite having to
pay the =24100 freight for 1000 lbs from ashville, nc. to here in no. =
virginia.
To get consistently high quality, it is worth it=21
susan
Marcia Kindlmann on tue 23 feb 99
Subject: Laguna Clay Opinions?
Robert Moore was asking,
> Could anyone using Laguna clays please respond to me and give me their
> feelings on the clays they have used from Laguna and the service they
> received.
There are two different sets of Laguna clay bodies -- one group mixed in
CA (that's where the B-Mix and Rod's Bod comes from that you've been
hearing about) and the other group is mixed in their plant in
Skaneateles, NY. Formerly the name of the Skaneateles plant was Miller
Clays -- before Laguna bought Miller at the time when Karl Miller
retired. It's these Miller clay bodies which Laguna now continues to
sell from the NY plant. My experience is with these.
The ones I've used -- 550 porcelain, 900 stoneware, and 950 stoneware
-- have very good throwing qualities. But some problems a few years
back with consistency in two of these bodies drove me to try clay from
other suppliers in the northeast. Well, I've got to say that Karl
Miller knew how to formulate a clay for throwing qualities, if it was he
who developed these clay bodies. The 550 porcelain can be thrown with
ease, and wide-flared bowls don't sag nor warp out-of-round in a cone 10
firing. (When I briefly tried the 560 porcelain I did have some of
those problems, and some of my glazes crazed on 560 when they didn't on
550) But 550 has been a good performer -- except for some later
difficulties for me when -- evidently -- some shift in raw materials
affected its firing properties with _some_ of my glazes. (Laguna offered
to exchange the clay, after I described my careful side-by-side tests of
new & old batches, using my glazes, but unfortunately a newer sample had
the same problem with those certain glazes.) But I understand that
other people, using other glazes, aren't having a problem with 550
porcelain.
Laguna in NY tells me that the mines don't announce when they've opened
a new section or if there's a shift in the analysis of the raw material;
Laguna just has to pick this up when they fire a sample (unglazed) from
each batch of clay they prepare -- they do a visual inspection of the
fired sample.
The other issue of consistency was in grog -- in stoneware. You might
want to ask _any_ clay company you deal with about the nature of the
grog they use. _Many_ years ago (in the era of Karl Miller) a problem
began with lime contamination in the used firebrick (from Maryland
Refractories, I think) that was milled for the grog. They switched to
"virgin grog" from a different supplier and solved that lime problem.
(Just in case you hear about this from somebody who's used their
stoneware years ago). The virgin grog was crushed not milled, thus had
a different texture, sharp edges, and required some adjustments (in
particle size?) before they arrived at a grog that felt similar in
throwing for the 900 body that potters were accustomed to. I am
now still using their 900 and find it has a good texture for
throwing.
Then there was a grog experience I had with Laguna/Miller 950 stoneware,
another issue of consistency. I had ordered a sample of this clay (it's
toothy, but very responsive in throwing) and on the basis of my
experience with that sample, including my own informal thermal shock
tests (freezing/boiling, even being so rude as to hold a baking dish
from the freezer half in and half out of hot water) I ordered a quantity
of the 950 stoneware. But then they were out of stock. The next batch
-- in which they said they hadn't made any changes -- had a grog that
felt totally different. There were needles that stuck out of the thrown
surface. Eventually I was able to exchange the clay when they returned
to (or arrived at?) a grog that was more like my original 950 sample.
When I asked about this I was told that they had in fact _specified_ the
same grog -- it was just "a different distribution of particle sizes"
(there had been another change in grog supplier perhaps).
The point of all this is that one has to ask questions very carefully --
I suppose this might apply to other clay companies as well. "We
haven't made any changes" doesn't mean that nothing has changed.
Specifications and the clay body recipe may remain the same but
different raw materials suppliers provide different answers to those
"same" specifications, evidently.
I was interested in ovenware bodies and asked Laguna in NY if they do
any dilatometer testing of their bodies, to detect a quantity of
cristobalite that might affect resistance to thermal shock. They don't
do such testing; (nor do some others in Northeast); but you might want
to check this out -- I recall mention of a clay-maker in Canada, Tucker
I think, that has some distribution in U.S., which does do such testing.
Marcia in Guilford CT
amy parker on tue 23 feb 99
I personally have not used B-mix, but wanted to pass on the info that I picked
up at a recent Stephen Hill workshop. He said he used B-mix once & just got
hooked. It was everything that HE was looking for.
When he finalized his plans for the workshop in Atlanta, he asked that there
be a supply of B-mix on hand for him, and asked that it be unwrapped overnight
to stiffen up to the point that he preferred. This was done, and he was sorry
that he had asked for this, as the clay was SO STIFF as to almost be unworkable.
Wherever his comes from, and wherever ours came from, they were obviously not
mixed to the same density (right word???). Since this company is large and
has multiple manufacturing locations, one should consider that each may have
its own idea of "perfect clay".
amy parker Lithonia, GA
amyp@sd-software.com
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