Rachel and Eric on sun 29 nov 98
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Vince wrote:
<You are of course completely right in terms of historical pottery usage
throughout the world, and contemporary pottery usage in many tribal and
Third-World cultures. But it is important to point out that there are
significant health concerns to be considered here. In cultures which use
unglazed, porous pottery for daily cooking and eating, children grow up
exposed to the bacteria which live in the porous clay, and develop strong
immunities. But if someone from industrialized western culture, with no
resistance to these bacteria, were to store moist food in or eat hot moist
from these vessels, they could get very sick. Apparently you have built up
enough resistance that these bacteria do not bother you. But it is
something for the rest of us to be concerned about.>>
I think the sentence should read, "children that survive grow up ..."
- Joseph Herbert
Vince got me thinking, Joseph got me laughing -- "Watch out son,
that pot might kill you."
I hadn't thought about the bacteria in pottery much until Vince
posted. And if bacteria in pottery is bad, I just learned through an article
in National Geographic, that we've each got about as many bacteria on our
skin as there are people in the United States.
Bacteria is everywhere, comes with life on Earth. Some bad, some
good. The question in my mind is, "is the bacteria in porous pottery naughty
or nice?" My understanding is that the nasty bacteria in the kitchen is
generally associtated with excrement and filth. If you live in such an
environment, prepare your food with contaminated water and wash your dishes
with that water, you'll probably get sick, your children might die.
I went into the kitchen and contemplated my low fire pottery for a
spell this afternoon. There is no doubt in my mind that this porous pottery
offers bacteria plenty of nooks and crannies. But I've got to imagine that
every time I cook beans or stew in one of my porous pots I must destroy any
bacteria, good or bad, as heat is their enemy. Of course my low fire bowls
and mugs, etc. don't get that hot, so nothing is destroying those bacteria
ghettos. But neither do some more familiar kitchen utinsels such as cutting
boards, wooden spoons, rubber spatulas or that 2 year old plastic measuring
cup which is riddled with age fissures. Any reason why any of these items
would hold less bacteria than a porous clay vessel?
Vince, going out on a limb, I'll say that every kitchen has
bacteria in it and that everyone of us has built immunity since childhood to
the local flora and fauna ( I grew up in the US, got sick alot when I first
moved to Mexico and don't anymore. You are right when you suggest I've built
up resistence. But I DO get sick once a year when I go back to the U.S. for
a visit. Those old familiar bugs have become stangers). If you use porous
pottery in your kitchen it is going to fill up with local bugs; immigrants
from the cutting board and tile grouting. Since your body knows these bugs,
it won't bother you a bit.
If someone from the industrialized West was to come here (Mexico) and
eat a meal out of a porous bowl in the market, s/he might get sick. If that
peson were to come here and buy a new porous bowl and take it home and use
it, I postulate that they would not get sick. I know that when U.S. folks
visit us here at the house and eat off of our pottery, out of our kitchen,
they don't get sick. When we head out into the country and don't watch
ourselves it's a different story.
Eric in ancient Mexico enjoying the converstion. Been spending to
much time talking about rain and corn with the neighbors, this is an
engaging change.
Rachel Werling
and/or
Eric Mindling
Manos de Oaxaca
AP 1452
Oaxaca, Oax.
CP 68000
M E X I C O
http://www.foothill.net/~mindling
fax 011 52 (952) 1-4186
email: rayeric@antequera.com
Jim Brooks on mon 30 nov 98
all of this problem would not exist if you would use a little Chlorox,
Purex..or any one of the chlorine bleaches in your dishwater... also i have
read it recommeded that you use this for cutting boards and drain/cabinet
tops.. so stop spreading those germs....
John Rodgers on mon 30 nov 98
-- [ From: John Rodgers * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
Rachel and Eric
You Said:
>>My understanding is that the nasty bacteria in the kitchen is generally
associtated with excrement and filth.<<
Not so! And your post scares me to death!!!
Not to be overbearing about foodborne disease, it is a problem, and
excrement and filth are not the only sources.
Any food at room temperature is potentially a haven for bacterial growth.
The classic example is potato salad.
In most food sanitation courses you will hear the horror story about the
worker who has the infected hangnail. To him it doesn't seem bad, just a
little tenderness, slight redness, but figures it will get well in a couple
of days, so hands are washed and to work he goes making the potatoe salad,
cutting up the eggs, etc, etc, handling the food with bare hands. But guess
what. Staphalococcus is part of the natural bacterial flora of the body. 99
chances out of a 100 the sore finger is caused by staph. A few staph cells
get into the potatoe salad. The salad is left on the counter while the rest
of the food is prepared. Kitchen is warm, potatoe salad approaches room
temperature. Staph starts growing above 45F, so now the staph is multiplying
, and metabolizing the potato salad. A by-product of staph metabolism is a
toxin that is poison to humans. It is not heat labile...ie, destroyed by
heat. So now the potato salad is now laced with poison.
Our hapless kitchen worker now prepares a chicken. Drags out the the wood
cutting board, and proceeds to cut up the chicken. Being careful to avoid
contamination, the worker rinses and dries the board, then incautiously
slices eggs on the board to lay on the potatoe salad as decoration. Unknown
by the worker, the board being porous, has picked up a few Escherica coli (E
.. Coli in the news papers) cells from the chicken which was not perfectly
cleaned at the processing plant. Since the board was not dipped in a
sterilizing dip( clorox in water could be used and often is) E. coli is now
transferred to the eggs which go into the potatoes. Dinner is served and
every one enjoys their meal. About a half hour later one of the kids begins
to complain about not feeling good. An adult begins to complain about a
headache. Others are beginning to feel queezy. In an hour, Junior begins to
throw up. Adults are coming down with nausea and stomach distress. They too,
begin to vomit. Staph poisoning has begun to show itself. Several hours
later, the first appearance of diahrea shows. Now the presence of the E.
coli is beginning to be felt. The upper digestive tract is poisoned, the
lower digestive tract is infected with pathogenic E. coli.
With luck, all will recover from the staph poisoning in twenty-four hours
and in a couple of days from the E. coli. Without luck, and/or medical
treatment, there may be some very sad families indeed, because these can
kill.
While this scenario is the classic case, it is very real. And because it is
real, safe food handling is essential. And while we do have natual defenses,
those defenses will be tested often enough without our unwittingly adding to
those tests.The frequency of foodborne illness requires of us to be
proactive to protect ourselves. But to do that there must be understanding
of the principles.
Raw food, hands, dirty implements, or even the food container itself being
unclean to start with can be a source of bacteria causing foodborne disease
.. Also, bacteria and mold spores floating in the air and falling into the
container can contaminate food. Contaminated food material from a previous
meal from the pores in unsealed pottery can also be a source. The trouble
really starts when water is present. All life requires water, even bacteria.
If water is present it is easy for bacteria to get a start. If food
particles are present in the pores of a pot, then the door is open for
trouble.
This drum has been beaten before, but never enough. Most of the so-called
"Stomach Flu" is brought on by foodborne disease, and most generally of the
toxin type, ie, food poisoning. The effect of the toxins on the upper
digestive tract is where the "stomach" part comes in. This is not to say
that "stomach flu" doesn't exist, but to simply say that what is often
called "stomach flu" is more often in reality a food-borne illness and not
flu at all.
For home use, simple precautions, like a hot water rinse made up with three
tablespoons of chlorox in it, for rinsing utinsels, pots, etc, is probably
sufficient. That can be done even in fairly primitive conditions. And if the
chlorine compounds are not there, boiling water works.
And as for porous pots, just about any pot that can stand 500 degrees F can
become sealed by cooking. The carbonaceous nature of our foods allow most of
the components of the food to be burned out. The residue remaining can seal
the pores. Cast iron pots are porous and will leak water that is placed in
them. They are sealed by coating them with oil and then cooking them at
400/500 degrees F until the oil is burned in and the porous iron is sealed
by the residue. At that point the cast iron is waterproof and ready for use.
To reseal, the owner typically will place them in redhot coals until the
cast iron pot is red-hot.The carbonaceous material burns out and goes up the
chimney as CO2. When cooled, the pot is washed and scrubbed, then recoated
with oil and burned in.
So, there are things that can be done, but don't ever take the food-borne
disease thing lightly.
Economics is a funny thing. When your neighbor is out of a job its a
recession. When you are out of a job, it's a depression. It's of concern
when your neighbor is sick on foodborne disease, but when it's in your own
family, it becomes the center focus. Just take precautionary steps and don't
let it happen.
I understand about adapting to the local bugs. That is what most of us do.
But there is no point in challanging them to a dual. The human misery and
economic loss is not worth it. I went way out of my zone once to Monterey,
and challanged Montezuma. He won! I lost!!. Took me six weeks to get over
his revenge.. Never been so sick. I could have done without that. Grand
example of foodborne illness!!
Take the proactive route. Don't risk the illness in the first place.
OK, the soapbox is put away now.
John Rodgers
In Alabama
(former Sanitarian, U.S. Public Health Service)
Chris Schafale on tue 1 dec 98
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> all of this problem would not exist if you would use a little Chlorox,
> Purex..or any one of the chlorine bleaches in your dishwater... also i have
> read it recommeded that you use this for cutting boards and drain/cabinet
> tops.. so stop spreading those germs....
>
However, be careful about mixing chlorine bleach with other cleaning
products. Chlorine and ammonia, for instance, is a major
noxious no-no. Palmolive dishwashing liquid specifically warns
against combining with bleach because of the danger of "irritating
fumes".
On the other hand, a dilute solution of chlorine bleach and
water is a great disinfectant for dishes, countertops, cutting
boards, etc, after all soap has been rinsed off. We use this at work
(catering) at the recommendation of the health department.
Chris
Light One Candle Pottery
Fuquay-Varina, NC
candle@nuteknet.com
Marty Anderson on wed 2 dec 98
Jim,
just exactly what germs are you talking about
marty
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Brooks
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: pit firing and killer pots
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>all of this problem would not exist if you would use a little Chlorox,
>Purex..or any one of the chlorine bleaches in your dishwater... also i
have
>read it recommeded that you use this for cutting boards and drain/cabinet
>tops.. so stop spreading those germs....
>
terryh on thu 3 dec 98
------------------
Rachel and Eric, my big applause to your healthy (confident and
opptimistic) observation i share with. my only addition/suggestion
is that the these killer pots better be dried before use. any water,
especially rich with nutrition, may work as an efficient imcubator.
just like any other ordinally and modern kitchen wares.
otherwise, why should we get poisoned with chlorine (germs may be
killed, but taste of the food get certainly murdered, and chlorine in
some organic compound?) and worse, with some carcenogenic
organic gernmicides.
but, this is the world and time of over-protection. and there are many,
too many, who want for healthy common sense. some may get sick
from the dirty killer pots, while some others may get sicker over Royal
Dalton without washing his/her hands before dinner. (grin)
and this is the society where carcenogenic ethylene gas is preferred
as germicide over clean and non-toxic gamma irradiation.
on the other hand, what kind of food in what kind of presentation goes
well with pit-fired killer pots? any suggestion? some green (veggies)
appetizer on a terracotta plate looks enticing. i wonder if it is better =
than
a copper-red porcelain bowl for suxh appetizers.
always-hungry terry
terry hagiwara
e-mail: thagiwara=40halnet.com (W)=3B terryh=40pdq.net (H)
web: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/3755
Rachel and Eric on thu 3 dec 98
John,
Thanks for the info, certainly good points and reminders. I guess I
did know some of what you where saying, we've been taught it all our lives:
thus washing our hands, not sharing a glass when ill, washing with hot soapy
water, clean water rinse. I suppose the efforts of US Public Health Service
have played an important role in forming these unconcious habits.
As you can see from my post, my bacterial knowledge is limited. I
don't pretend otherwise. My argument isn't that bacteria won't hurt us and
needn't be of concern. My objection is to pointing a finger at porous
pottery as being a more dangerous element in the kitchen than anything else.
Indeed, as you make clear in your post, that pointing finger, with a
fingernail full of staph, may be the most dangerous element in the kitchen.
Some dangers in the kitchen, quoting you:
>Raw food, hands, dirty implements, or even the food container itself being
>unclean to start with can be a source of bacteria causing foodborne disease.
cutting boards, porous pottery and cast iron pans among them. We
both say it in different ways: Hygene is the issue. Of course no kitchen
exists with out "raw foods, hands and dirty implements". It is how you
handle those items that will decide how you're going to feel after lunch.
-and you were in Monterrey which is one of the more modern of Mexican
Cities. I certainly paid my dues to Mexican bugs. From the beginning my work
and travels put me in remote locations with a plate of tasty food kindly
served me. Of course I ate it. I can't begin to count the times I've
suffered through touristas, giardia, ameobic dysntary. Over the course of a
year the potency of the infections diminshed to nothing. That was 7 years
ago. I eat more recklessly now than I did then (you should be scared to
death, and so should I) and don't get anything worthy of note anymore. A
testement to the power of the body to build resistance. I DID challenge the
bugs to a dual, I saw little choice in the matter as the life I wanted to
live had me working and playing outside of sanitary zones. Yes, I have paid
the price in suffering for this game of roulette. And I've enjoyed it all
quite well.
salud, Eric
>
>-- [ From: John Rodgers * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
>
>Rachel and Eric
>
>You Said:
>>>My understanding is that the nasty bacteria in the kitchen is generally
>associtated with excrement and filth.<<
>
>Not so! And your post scares me to death!!!
>
>Not to be overbearing about foodborne disease, it is a problem, and
>excrement and filth are not the only sources.
>
>Any food at room temperature is potentially a haven for bacterial growth.
>The classic example is potato salad.
>
>In most food sanitation courses you will hear the horror story about the
>worker who has the infected hangnail. To him it doesn't seem bad, just a
>little tenderness, slight redness, but figures it will get well in a couple
>of days, so hands are washed and to work he goes making the potatoe salad,
>cutting up the eggs, etc, etc, handling the food with bare hands. But guess
>what. Staphalococcus is part of the natural bacterial flora of the body. 99
>chances out of a 100 the sore finger is caused by staph. A few staph cells
>get into the potatoe salad. The salad is left on the counter while the rest
>of the food is prepared. Kitchen is warm, potatoe salad approaches room
>temperature. Staph starts growing above 45F, so now the staph is multiplying
>, and metabolizing the potato salad. A by-product of staph metabolism is a
>toxin that is poison to humans. It is not heat labile...ie, destroyed by
>heat. So now the potato salad is now laced with poison.
>
>Our hapless kitchen worker now prepares a chicken. Drags out the the wood
>cutting board, and proceeds to cut up the chicken. Being careful to avoid
>contamination, the worker rinses and dries the board, then incautiously
>slices eggs on the board to lay on the potatoe salad as decoration. Unknown
>by the worker, the board being porous, has picked up a few Escherica coli (E
>. Coli in the news papers) cells from the chicken which was not perfectly
>cleaned at the processing plant. Since the board was not dipped in a
>sterilizing dip( clorox in water could be used and often is) E. coli is now
>transferred to the eggs which go into the potatoes. Dinner is served and
>every one enjoys their meal. About a half hour later one of the kids begins
>to complain about not feeling good. An adult begins to complain about a
>headache. Others are beginning to feel queezy. In an hour, Junior begins to
>throw up. Adults are coming down with nausea and stomach distress. They too,
>begin to vomit. Staph poisoning has begun to show itself. Several hours
>later, the first appearance of diahrea shows. Now the presence of the E.
>coli is beginning to be felt. The upper digestive tract is poisoned, the
>lower digestive tract is infected with pathogenic E. coli.
>
>With luck, all will recover from the staph poisoning in twenty-four hours
>and in a couple of days from the E. coli. Without luck, and/or medical
>treatment, there may be some very sad families indeed, because these can
>kill.
>
>While this scenario is the classic case, it is very real. And because it is
>real, safe food handling is essential. And while we do have natual defenses,
>those defenses will be tested often enough without our unwittingly adding to
>those tests.The frequency of foodborne illness requires of us to be
>proactive to protect ourselves. But to do that there must be understanding
>of the principles.
>
>Raw food, hands, dirty implements, or even the food container itself being
>unclean to start with can be a source of bacteria causing foodborne disease
>. Also, bacteria and mold spores floating in the air and falling into the
>container can contaminate food. Contaminated food material from a previous
>meal from the pores in unsealed pottery can also be a source. The trouble
>really starts when water is present. All life requires water, even bacteria.
>If water is present it is easy for bacteria to get a start. If food
>particles are present in the pores of a pot, then the door is open for
>trouble. ...
>
>John Rodgers
>In Alabama
>(former Sanitarian, U.S. Public Health Service)
Rachel Werling
and/or
Eric Mindling
Manos de Oaxaca
AP 1452
Oaxaca, Oax.
CP 68000
M E X I C O
http://www.foothill.net/~mindling
fax 011 52 (952) 1-4186
email: rayeric@antequera.com
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