Lili Krakowski on thu 1 mar 12
Again, once more, I repeat my constant warning. Unsafe glazes, =3D
dangerous materials, and similar do not belong in any communal studio, =3D
do not belong anywhere where the partly-informed, the hurried, the =3D
naturally inattentive (such as children or teenagers or mentally =3D
handicapped) the unsupervised, may get at them.
I am sure Weathered Bronze is gorgeous--as Pinnell glazes always =3D
are--but if it it "iffy" for safety, it should not be in a communal =3D
studio.
Spare yourselves the "Oh, that woman is SUCH an alarmist" etc chant I =3D
have been heard since my first ClayArt days.
We have a genuine responsibility towards the unwary, unwarned, the =3D
beginners, and so on. =3D20
Yes, as John H. says you can test the glaze in your dishwasher, you can =
=3D
put vinegar or lime juice in it. You can put up HUGE signs that say DO =3D
NOT USE FOR FOOD RELATED POTS or USE ON OUTSIDE OF POTS ONLY!
And then what happens? Two students, side by side, are glazing. (In =3D
many communal situations there are official "glazing days" so that the =3D
mess is contained.) Student One has read all the warnings, is careful, =3D
using Unstable/Not Food Safe glaze only on tile and on lampbasess. =3D
Student Two sees the test tile says: "Oh, this is so gorgeous! As you =3D
already have sieved the glaze can I use your bowl of it when you are =3D
through? I'll put the glaze back in bucket...and clean up for you." =3D
"Sure, thanks" says Student One.
It is NOT Student One's responsibility to check what Student Two is =3D
applying Gorgeous But Unsafe Glaze to. It is NOT Student One's duty to =3D
check whether the glaze is perfectly fired. It is NOT Student One's =3D
obligation to tell Student Two to take the pot home and check as John H =3D
says....That responsibility, obligation, duty is the studio manager's.
Ultimately, the responsibility is ours, as a community of craftsmen.
Lili Krakowski
Be of good courage
Neil Estrick on thu 1 mar 12
Well put. I have tried once or twice to have a non-food-safe glaze for my=
=3D
=3D20
students to use, to silence the begging of my advanced students. But even=
=3D
they=3D20
used them on the inside of mugs! Never again.
Randall Moody on fri 2 mar 12
"I am sure Weathered Bronze is gorgeous--as Pinnell glazes always are--but
if it it "iffy" for safety, it should not be in a communal studio.
Spare yourselves the "Oh, that woman is SUCH an alarmist" etc chant I have
been heard since my first ClayArt days."
I feel the need to point out that the "it should not be in a communal
studio" is so broad brush a statement that it must be looked at as simply
an opinion. If you don't want it in your communal studio feel free to not
have it but you (the general you, not the specific you) are not the police
or arbiter of another person's communal studio. I find it interesting that
Lili says that it is not student's one's duty to check where the glaze is
food safe but it appears that she finds it her duty to police other potters
communal studios. Is it just me or does anyone else see the dichotomy
there?
Actually, it is the students' responsibility to follow the guidelines as
laid out in the syllabus and course. Failure to follow those rules should
result in a lower grade and destruction of the pot or piece in question. 10
pots assigned 5 with non-food safe glazes inside? You get a 50 and the joy
of seeing your pots busted up and tossed. It sounds harsh but I believe
that the lesson would be well learned.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
Neil Estrick on fri 2 mar 12
I really don't think this is about grades and lessons. This is about safe=
=3D
ty. Will the=3D20
teacher see every pot that the students make and be able to cull the dang=
=3D
erous=3D20
ones from the group? My teachers didn't. We brought a specific number of =
=3D
our=3D20
best pots to critique, and the rest went home or were sold at the student=
=3D
pottery=3D20
sale. Many were sold before the critique. So now you've not only got stud=
=3D
ents=3D20
with dangerous glazes, but you've got the community using them. Yes, it o=
=3D
ur=3D20
OPINION that non-food-safe glazes shouldn't be used in a communal studio.=
=3D
But=3D20
can you really justify endangering the health of your students just to te=
=3D
ach them=3D20
a lesson? Try explaining that to the dean. There's also the liability iss=
=3D
ue. No=3D20
better way to shut down a clay program than a lawsuit...
Randall Moody on fri 2 mar 12
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Neil Estrick w=
rote:
> I really don't think this is about grades and lessons. This is about
> safety. Will the
> teacher see every pot that the students make and be able to cull the
> dangerous
> ones from the group? My teachers didn't. We brought a specific number of
> our
> best pots to critique, and the rest went home or were sold at the student
> pottery
> sale. Many were sold before the critique. So now you've not only got
> students
> with dangerous glazes, but you've got the community using them. Yes, it o=
ur
> OPINION that non-food-safe glazes shouldn't be used in a communal studio.
> But
> can you really justify endangering the health of your students just to
> teach them
> a lesson? Try explaining that to the dean. There's also the liability
> issue. No
> better way to shut down a clay program than a lawsuit...
>
I see it as an education. If we can have a chemistry lab operating with
safe handling while still having dangerous chemicals around we should be
able to do the same with ceramics. If you are there to teach then teaching
them safe handling and use of all materials comes with the job.
--
Randall in Atlanta
http://wrandallmoody.com
Greg Relaford on fri 2 mar 12
As novice/student, I and others like me that I work around rely heavily on
the knowledge and common sense of the instructors. Nobody wants to get sick
or cause the same in others... Nobody I spend time around anyway ;-)
One of the studios I go to has about 30 glazes, all but cone 10 clear mixed
by instructors. Only one is marked... Clearly... _may_ not be food safe,
and that has no heavy metals.
I am well known as a risk taker and maybe a little fearless in trying new
things.... But I take the word of the instructors as 'word of God'; I'm
very aware that opinions vary among experts, but whoever is in charge... Is
in charge.
The problem with risky glazes, chemicals, etc. in a general pottery studio
setting is that it can amount to, or become, a silent approval for it to be
used generally.
Having such glazes made and locked away for controlled application with
instructor involvement makes sense. Otherwise though, it causes unnecessary
trouble for everyone in the room.
FYI: I've worked in highly contaminated environments, with positive air
respiration, fully body cover, etc. Around chemicals that kill in an
instant or slowly. I respect safety precautions laid down by the better
informed.
GregR
On Mar 2, 2012 12:42 PM, "Neil Estrick" wrote=
:
> I really don't think this is about grades and lessons. This is about
> safety. Will the
> teacher see every pot that the students make and be able to cull the
> dangerous
> ones from the group? My teachers didn't. We brought a specific number of
> our
> best pots to critique, and the rest went home or were sold at the student
> pottery
> sale. Many were sold before the critique. So now you've not only got
> students
> with dangerous glazes, but you've got the community using them. Yes, it o=
ur
> OPINION that non-food-safe glazes shouldn't be used in a communal studio.
> But
> can you really justify endangering the health of your students just to
> teach them
> a lesson? Try explaining that to the dean. There's also the liability
> issue. No
> better way to shut down a clay program than a lawsuit...
>
Lee on fri 2 mar 12
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Neil Estrick
wrote:
> Well put. I have tried once or twice to have a non-food-safe glaze for my
> students to use, to silence the begging of my advanced students. But even=
=3D
they
> used them on the inside of mugs! Never again.
Not every studio is limited to "food safe" (what ever that means.)
NCC has a good handbuilding program with some excellent teachers.
Some people make SCULPTURE with clay.
Remember, our number one heal hazard in the clay studio is
"food safe" dust that causes silicosis.
--=3D20
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Wyndham Dennison on sat 3 mar 12
Randall Moody said;
> Actually, it is the students' responsibility to follow the guidelines as
> laid out in the syllabus and course. Failure to follow those rules should
> result in a lower grade and destruction of the pot or piece in question. =
10
> pots assigned 5 with non-food safe glazes inside? You get a 50 and the jo=
y
> of seeing your pots busted up and tossed. It sounds harsh but I believe
> that the lesson would be well learned.
If I may, a little different take on this issue.
If the persons involved in the studio were required to know and
thoroughly understand glazes before using these glazes, I doubt there
would be any misuse.
Now that would require the in depth teaching of glazes, the how any why
of using different materials in a glaze, the understanding of the proper
firing of glaze and clay and enough one to one time to allow the student
to understand their responsibility in the learning process.
I'm not referring so much to teaching the understanding of mol formula
but a broader look at understanding of the different components of the
materials we use and how those materials interact..
If we simple bust up 5 pots, the student may not understand that those
same materials in a different glaze may be used safely.
If we ban glazes without teaching the safe use then we do a disservice
to the student that comes to learn, not simply coddled in a "art"
experience for a semester.
Pottery is my career, my profession. I owe it to myself and my customers
to understand all facets of my chosen field, this comes from experience
but before that comes learning
As Mel said about teabowls;
> without question, make all you want, use them for whatever
> you want...no rules or laws. just don't pretend you know all about
> it. it is a very complex issue.
> mel
Clay and glazes are too complex an issue to be treated
insignificantly. By not taking the time to teach a deep enough level of
understanding of pottery, those who come to learn loose. If the school
does not have a high standard in that field, find one or someone that does.
I met folks every day that have gone through clay classes that
overwhelmed them because the school didn't take the time to learn what
the student knew and get them the tools to learn how to learn about clay.
From the schools POV they may think they are doing a great job, but
from the students POV, many have no idea what they went through, even
though they got a passing grade.
From Mel's post on teabowls;
> speaking of holding work...i have held hundreds of famous
> japanese tea ceremony tea bowls. they are magical. they
> do run shivers up your spine. at least they do for me.
It's impossible to have that reaction without the knowledge of what went
into making these pieces.
Why should a student leave a class on pottery without the desire to
want to gain that type of knowledge about pottery & glazes.
It's our responsibility to help foster this desire of knowledge in others.
My 2 cents worth of bandwidth.
Wyndham
Neil Estrick on sat 3 mar 12
Safe handling of the raw materials is one thing. Getting them to remember=
=3D
that=3D20
some glazes can only be used for some part of a pot is quite another. Stu=
=3D
dents=3D20
are overwhelmed with the process and aesthetics of glazing their first se=
=3D
veral=3D20
rounds of glazing, and some inevitably use the wrong glaze on the inside =
=3D
of a=3D20
pot. It's got nothing to do with how good a teacher you are, or how thoro=
=3D
ugh you=3D20
are in your explanations of glaze safety.
It's not like just because you taught them the proper method that they're=
=3D
all=3D20
going to do it. If that was the case then everyone would get an 'A' in ev=
=3D
ery class.=3D20
It's impossible to stand over every student during the glazing process an=
=3D
d make=3D20
sure it's done right. In my opinion, it's not worth the risk. I'm not wil=
=3D
ling to risk=3D20
my business being shut down due to a lawsuit just because my students wan=
=3D
ted=3D20
a metallic bronze glaze.
Greg Relaford on sat 3 mar 12
A great point. However it really is contingent on the circumstances of the
studio. If random community college students can work with high molar
acids, then surely adult students of pottery could be trusted with
glazes... With training and education... That can leach metals into food
and drink.
However, every place and population is different, and the level of caution
should vary with it. In one studio I go to it is the teacher, another
teacher (sculpture) and one or two others. The average age in the room is
mid-fifties. The other studio, in a given week, sees a range from grade
school upwards.
The instructors and owners take all these variables into account, and it is
obviously also a comfort level issue. As someone who works in K-12, I'm in
total sympathy with the liability dilemma. As a pottery student, I want to
learn the chemistry and raw materials. Ideally I would do that with an
experienced potter at my back. I (mostly) let the comfort level of the
instructors be the boundary for experimentation.
At least one elephant in the room, the tendency to litigation, interferes
here, as in K-12 lab science. Not much to be done about that.
On Mar 2, 2012 2:20 PM, "Randall Moody" wrote:
Taylor Hendrix on sat 3 mar 12
Greg,
While it's an interesting comparison between a chem lab and a clay
studio, they are two entirely different animals. Even so, I know of
several chemistry students whom I would NEVER trust with acids, dilute
or otherwise, so there goes your conditional. My Brazilian lab partner
in organic chem. was one of those crazy students. Almost gassed us to
death one day. Chem teachers watch these type of students like hawks,
and believe you me if there were no reason for the hydrochloric acid
to be out for that day's lab, then the lab technician would never have
given us access.
Perhaps that might be a solution for particularly sketchy glazes: only
bring them out when the glaze is needed for that day's "lab."
I remember chem. labs being about the learning of chemical reactions
through the close following of a regimented lab exercise. I don't
remember them as a place where I was allowed to do anything I wanted.
"Hmm, wonder what happens when I heat this cool potassium bromide with
this concentrated hydrochloric acid I found laying around. Oops, did I
forget to add the distilled water? Why is it so dark in here?" Neither
was the chemistry lab a place where a student just learning how to
read a meniscus in a graduated cylinder would be working along side
someone trying to synthesize an aniline dye. Just doesn't happen.
Danger, Will Robinson! This type of thing is quite common in clay
studios (not the dye thing, but the disparity in experience).
I feel the teacher's job is to anticipate the stupid stuff students
will do rather than expecting (even adult) students not to do stupid
stuff. Students don't always know what the stupid stuff is at the
beginning. This is the main reason teachers have jobs. My chem.
teacher was watching Ibis and me the whole time we were setting up our
experiment (Ibis was supposed to add the water to dilute the acid,
btw, not me), because as the professor later told me, "Chemistry
students are always trying to commit mass murder."
A communal studio full of only experts -- that's a horse of a different col=
or.
Taylor, in Rockport TX
wirerabbit1 on Skype (-0600 UTC)
http://wirerabbit.blogspot.com
http://wirerabbitpots.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wirerabbit/
https://youtube.com/thewirerabbit
On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Greg Relaford wro=
te:
... If random community college students can work with high molar
> acids, then surely adult students of pottery could be trusted with
> glazes... With training and education... That can leach metals into food
> and drink.
...
Nefsigh@AOL.COM on sat 3 mar 12
Seems to me, after teaching for more than 35 years with a completely "open"
glaze lab, stocked with everything from lead to standard materials and
NEVER having had one accident, misuse or injury -my belief was simple--On =
the
FIRST day of class (AND posted on the glaze lab door) I told the students
the following: EVERYTHING in here will kill you if you misuse it. Use it
safely, with proper protection and understanding of the materials, and noth=
ing
bad will happen.
And, nothing did.
It goes without saying I always had available gloves and masks (even though
the university, in writing, told us NOT to make these available, as that
would imply danger---can you believe that??)--I always had NIOSH approved
stuff for the kids to use and they did.
Too much protection leads to fear, too little information leads to misuse
and abuse.
Lenny Dowhie
Professor Emeritus
University of Southern Indiana
In a message dated 3/3/2012 7:02:44 P.M. Central Standard Time,
wirerabbit2@GMAIL.COM writes:
Greg,
While it's an interesting comparison between a chem lab and a clay
studio, they are two entirely different animals. Even so, I know of
several chemistry students whom I would NEVER trust with acids, dilute
or otherwise, so there goes your conditional. My Brazilian lab partner
in organic chem. was one of those crazy students. Almost gassed us to
death one day. Chem teachers watch these type of students like hawks,
and believe you me if there were no reason for the hydrochloric acid
to be out for that day's lab, then the lab technician would never have
given us access.
Perhaps that might be a solution for particularly sketchy glazes: only
bring them out when the glaze is needed for that day's "lab."
I remember chem. labs being about the learning of chemical reactions
through the close following of a regimented lab exercise. I don't
remember them as a place where I was allowed to do anything I wanted.
"Hmm, wonder what happens when I heat this cool potassium bromide with
this concentrated hydrochloric acid I found laying around. Oops, did I
forget to add the distilled water? Why is it so dark in here?" Neither
was the chemistry lab a place where a student just learning how to
read a meniscus in a graduated cylinder would be working along side
someone trying to synthesize an aniline dye. Just doesn't happen.
Danger, Will Robinson! This type of thing is quite common in clay
studios (not the dye thing, but the disparity in experience).
I feel the teacher's job is to anticipate the stupid stuff students
will do rather than expecting (even adult) students not to do stupid
stuff. Students don't always know what the stupid stuff is at the
beginning. This is the main reason teachers have jobs. My chem.
teacher was watching Ibis and me the whole time we were setting up our
experiment (Ibis was supposed to add the water to dilute the acid,
btw, not me), because as the professor later told me, "Chemistry
students are always trying to commit mass murder."
A communal studio full of only experts -- that's a horse of a different
color.
Taylor, in Rockport TX
wirerabbit1 on Skype (-0600 UTC)
http://wirerabbit.blogspot.com
http://wirerabbitpots.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wirerabbit/
https://youtube.com/thewirerabbit
On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Greg Relaford
wrote:
... If random community college students can work with high molar
> acids, then surely adult students of pottery could be trusted with
> glazes... With training and education... That can leach metals into food
> and drink.
...
Greg Relaford on sat 3 mar 12
I think we're on the same page with respect to this; I was trying to use
the chemistry lab as an extreme example vs. the pottery studio.
My thought is that 'questionable' materials be brought out for specific
needs.... if the instructors feel that system serves their needs better.
There isn't one rule fits all, and the bottom line is the judgement call of
the instructors.
As has been noted, 'heck, the silica is worst hazard in a studio anyway. '
FWIW, things are a little more freewheeling in some labs.... one wonders
why there are not more casualties. One lab test my class got involved an
'unknown substance' known to be acid. Find molarity. Weak base... and an
acid ten times stronger than any we had ever worked with. Lots of confusion
by the students following previous lab notes by rote. This stuff would have
sent anyone with a spill to the hospital. Only two of us _saw_ that it was
so strong and diluted accordingly; we knew, because we understood. Everyone
else assumed it was like table vinegar or something.
On Mar 3, 2012 5:02 PM, "Taylor Hendrix" wrote:
> Greg,
>
> While it's an interesting comparison between a chem lab and a clay
> studio, they are two entirely different animals. Even so, I know of
> several chemistry students whom I would NEVER trust with acids, dilute
> or otherwise, so there goes your conditional. My Brazilian lab partner
> in organic chem. was one of those crazy students. Almost gassed us to
> death one day. Chem teachers watch these type of students like hawks,
> and believe you me if there were no reason for the hydrochloric acid
> to be out for that day's lab, then the lab technician would never have
> given us access.
>
> Perhaps that might be a solution for particularly sketchy glazes: only
> bring them out when the glaze is needed for that day's "lab."
>
> I remember chem. labs being about the learning of chemical reactions
> through the close following of a regimented lab exercise. I don't
> remember them as a place where I was allowed to do anything I wanted.
> "Hmm, wonder what happens when I heat this cool potassium bromide with
> this concentrated hydrochloric acid I found laying around. Oops, did I
> forget to add the distilled water? Why is it so dark in here?" Neither
> was the chemistry lab a place where a student just learning how to
> read a meniscus in a graduated cylinder would be working along side
> someone trying to synthesize an aniline dye. Just doesn't happen.
> Danger, Will Robinson! This type of thing is quite common in clay
> studios (not the dye thing, but the disparity in experience).
>
> I feel the teacher's job is to anticipate the stupid stuff students
> will do rather than expecting (even adult) students not to do stupid
> stuff. Students don't always know what the stupid stuff is at the
> beginning. This is the main reason teachers have jobs. My chem.
> teacher was watching Ibis and me the whole time we were setting up our
> experiment (Ibis was supposed to add the water to dilute the acid,
> btw, not me), because as the professor later told me, "Chemistry
> students are always trying to commit mass murder."
>
> A communal studio full of only experts -- that's a horse of a different
> color.
>
> Taylor, in Rockport TX
> wirerabbit1 on Skype (-0600 UTC)
> http://wirerabbit.blogspot.com
> http://wirerabbitpots.blogspot.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/wirerabbit/
> https://youtube.com/thewirerabbit
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Greg Relaford
> wrote:
> ... If random community college students can work with high molar
> > acids, then surely adult students of pottery could be trusted with
> > glazes... With training and education... That can leach metals into foo=
d
> > and drink.
> ...
>
Greg Relaford on sun 4 mar 12
Agreed... Well said.
On Mar 4, 2012 5:25 PM, "Rimas VisGirda" wrote:
> Too much protection leads to fear, too little information leads to misuse
> and abuse.
>
> Nicely said, Lenny... -Rimas
>
Rimas VisGirda on sun 4 mar 12
Too much protection leads to fear, too little information leads to misuse
and abuse.
Nicely said, Lenny... -Rimas
ivor and olive lewis on mon 5 mar 12
Dear Taylor Hendrix,
Recalling that experience, what is the Chem Lab Rule you learned relating t=
o
the dilution of concentrated acids with water ?
Regards,
Ivor Lewis,
REDHILL,
South Australia
Taylor Hendrix on mon 5 mar 12
Well Ivor,
I don't want to get into a HEATed discussion with you on lab
procedures but as in many operations of life the ORDER of things does
matter!
All the best to you, Ivor.
As for the discussion at hand, I think people are confusing the
college/university clay studio with a different animal: the communal
studio.
Taylor, in Rockport TX
wirerabbit1 on Skype (-0600 UTC)
http://wirerabbit.blogspot.com
http://wirerabbitpots.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wirerabbit/
https://youtube.com/thewirerabbit
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:40 AM, ivor and olive lewis
wrote:
> Dear Taylor Hendrix,
>
> Recalling that experience, what is the Chem Lab Rule you learned relating=
to
> the dilution of concentrated acids with water ?
>
> Regards,
>
> Ivor Lewis,
> REDHILL,
> South Australia
Greg Relaford on mon 5 mar 12
LOL! Good comeback!
I agree, the discussion is muddled or conflated some. When children are
present, I would agree with Lili. When only adults.... I think it becomes
more of a judgement call by the instructors. On a personal level, I would
_absolutely_ look for places to get the most training, the widest and
deepest experience. As others have said better before, that will include
the materials and methods that are or can be 'less safe.' However, not
everyone taking a pottery class is in my 'demographic', and not all studios
are going to have the same customer base. In some cases city or county
governments call the shots over the head of the potter in charge. Sometimes
they work with students and dry ingredients on the down-low.... If I were
king, I'd make up to the instructors to make the call, not bureaucrats....
Despite my support for OSHA and company.
In a university or college arts program... Everyone in sight would be
shortchanged by watering down the curriculum.
On Mar 5, 2012 8:29 AM, "Taylor Hendrix" wrote:
> Well Ivor,
>
> I don't want to get into a HEATed discussion with you on lab
> procedures but as in many operations of life the ORDER of things does
> matter!
>
> All the best to you, Ivor.
>
> As for the discussion at hand, I think people are confusing the
> college/university clay studio with a different animal: the communal
> studio.
>
> Taylor, in Rockport TX
> wirerabbit1 on Skype (-0600 UTC)
> http://wirerabbit.blogspot.com
> http://wirerabbitpots.blogspot.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/wirerabbit/
> https://youtube.com/thewirerabbit
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:40 AM, ivor and olive lewis
> wrote:
> > Dear Taylor Hendrix,
> >
> > Recalling that experience, what is the Chem Lab Rule you learned
> relating to
> > the dilution of concentrated acids with water ?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Ivor Lewis,
> > REDHILL,
> > South Australia
>
Neil Estrick on tue 6 mar 12
Teaching glaze formulation, including 'unsafe' glazes, is different than =
=3D
having=3D20
'unsafe' glazes available for community use. Glaze formulation class shou=
=3D
ld=3D20
include unsafe glazes, but I still would not have the unsafe glazes avail=
=3D
able for=3D20
the general student population to use. If advanced students want to formu=
=3D
late=3D20
for their own use, then by all means go for it.
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