Sandy Miller on thu 8 jul 10
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sandy miller
To: Elisabeth Maurland
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:38:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Pricing. Can we talk?
Well Bravo Elisabeth!
By the way I am a huge fan of your work and thank you for taking the time=
=3D
to
post on the topic!
I have watched this for years and the debate has raged for years. While =
=3D
the
ceramic artists have
stood by watching sales stagnate (not for all!) I watched the glass arti=
=3D
sts
prices climb up the charts.
Why?
The glass artists are doing a pretty good job at educating the public wha=
=3D
t
they do to produce their work and why it's so damn special. I have float=
=3D
ed
through the glass galleries of Riley Hawk and others and been poured a gl=
=3D
ass
of wine by the gallery steward while picking up my jaw off the ground upo=
=3D
n
seeing the price tags.
I am amazed that a couple guys in our town set up furnaces, make so-so wo=
=3D
rk
and the price tags they put
on their work. They have an open studio and dedicate much of their to de=
=3D
mo.
Goblets are $100. I was
somewhat shocked as I had my potter's head on and thought $35 tops, guys.=
=3D
My inside voice said; "I make glass, what the hell is glaze?" But I walk=
=3D
ed
past the line of folks lined up at the cash register cradling their wonky=
=3D
purchases.
Fiber Artists also have a diehard public of educated buyers who are
collecting and putting their money where their mouth is.
We just had a dinnerware show in Cleveland, Ohio. 17 ceramic artists, al=
=3D
l
professional and prices ranged
between $25 - $400 for a 10" dinner plate. The $25 dinner plate was
beautiful! I think more than any other craft form other than furniture we=
=3D
really get caught in that art/craft debate. Most folks in my neck of the=
=3D
woods don't want to spend $400 on a dinner plate nor do they understand w=
=3D
hy
the plate is $400.
When potters council formed I really thought........ahhhhh finally, we ar=
=3D
e
on our way. My hope was if we came together as a group we could tackle t=
=3D
his
elephant. They have brought awareness to potters but not sure they
have tackled public education. After a long break from Potters Council I=
=3D
just re-joined and yes I had to turn over couch cushions to find the mone=
=3D
y
for the membership. After a lengthy phone conversation this week with a
dear friend about the pros and cons of Potters Council I hung up, went to=
=3D
the studio and had an epiphany that sort of piffed me off. Potters Counc=
=3D
il
is NOT going to make me a better potter. So use it for the health
insurance, mastercard/visa or any other benefits they offer. I don't nee=
=3D
d
to attend conferences, I need to sit and produce work. I need to figure =
=3D
how
to make few more dollars to pay my bills, not spend more.
Do you know how many "professional" ceramic artists do not have time or
money to attend NCECA?
Elisabeth, I hear your frustration and I live your frustration. You're i=
=3D
n
Iowa, I'm in Ohio, a successful potter once told me head to the costs and=
=3D
get out of the midwest.
I will never forget talking to Don Reitz so many years ago at SOFA on the=
=3D
Navy Pier in Chicago. I was pie eyed at meeting him and he was so gracio=
=3D
us.
A glass gallery was representing him and had a display of his huge
signature pieces. His observation: I see them coming......... The guys
with the shined shoes and pinky rings go right for the glass. I see my
audience and they have a mohawk hair cut, pierced body parts and clay on
their shoes. He found this very mysterious.............
I do not........ we need to do better, I need to do better.
with respect to all,
Sandy Miller
www.sandymillerpottery.com
http://www.painefalls.blogspot.com/
tony clennell on thu 8 jul 10
Sandy: so it goes! Here in Ontario we have the Ontario Arts Council.
They have a multi storey building in downtown Toronto where real
estate is in the millions. They have dozens of employees, pamphlets,
website, jurying etc etc all to hand out about $100,000 dollars in
grants to the visual arts. The pyramid is inverted. The artists hold
on their broad shoulders a huge bureaucracy of paid employees.
It is a jagged pill to swallow when someone has a salary and bennies
and they are courting the same audience as the artist.
cheers,'
tony
On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:05 AM, Sandy Miller wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Sandy miller
> To: Elisabeth Maurland
> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:38:21 -0400
> Subject: Re: Pricing. Can we talk?
> Well Bravo Elisabeth!
>
> By the way I am a huge fan of your work and thank you for taking the time=
to
> post on the topic!
>
> I have watched this for years and the debate has raged for years. While =
the
> ceramic artists have
> stood by watching sales stagnate (not for all!) I watched the glass arti=
sts
> prices climb up the charts.
> Why?
> The glass artists are doing a pretty good job at educating the public wha=
t
> they do to produce their work and why it's so damn special. I have float=
ed
> through the glass galleries of Riley Hawk and others and been poured a gl=
ass
> of wine by the gallery steward while picking up my jaw off the ground upo=
n
> seeing the price tags.
>
> I am amazed that a couple guys in our town set up furnaces, make so-so wo=
rk
> and the price tags they put
> on their work. They have an open studio and dedicate much of their to de=
mo.
> Goblets are $100. I was
> somewhat shocked as I had my potter's head on and thought $35 tops, guys.
> My inside voice said; "I make glass, what the hell is glaze?" But I walk=
ed
> past the line of folks lined up at the cash register cradling their wonky
> purchases.
>
> Fiber Artists also have a diehard public of educated buyers who are
> collecting and putting their money where their mouth is.
>
> We just had a dinnerware show in Cleveland, Ohio. 17 ceramic artists, al=
l
> professional and prices ranged
> between $25 - $400 for a 10" dinner plate. The $25 dinner plate was
> beautiful! I think more than any other craft form other than furniture we
> really get caught in that art/craft debate. Most folks in my neck of the
> woods don't want to spend $400 on a dinner plate nor do they understand w=
hy
> the plate is $400.
>
> When potters council formed I really thought........ahhhhh finally, we ar=
e
> on our way. My hope was if we came together as a group we could tackle t=
his
> elephant. They have brought awareness to potters but not sure they
> have tackled public education. After a long break from Potters Council I
> just re-joined and yes I had to turn over couch cushions to find the mone=
y
> for the membership. After a lengthy phone conversation this week with a
> dear friend about the pros and cons of Potters Council I hung up, went to
> the studio and had an epiphany that sort of piffed me off. Potters Counc=
il
> is NOT going to make me a better potter. So use it for the health
> insurance, mastercard/visa or any other benefits they offer. I don't nee=
d
> to attend conferences, I need to sit and produce work. I need to figure =
how
> to make few more dollars to pay my bills, not spend more.
>
> Do you know how many "professional" ceramic artists do not have time or
> money to attend NCECA?
>
> Elisabeth, I hear your frustration and I live your frustration. You're i=
n
> Iowa, I'm in Ohio, a successful potter once told me head to the costs and
> get out of the midwest.
>
> I will never forget talking to Don Reitz so many years ago at SOFA on the
> Navy Pier in Chicago. I was pie eyed at meeting him and he was so gracio=
us.
> A glass gallery was representing him and had a display of his huge
> signature pieces. His observation: I see them coming......... The guys
> with the shined shoes and pinky rings go right for the glass. I see my
> audience and they have a mohawk hair cut, pierced body parts and clay on
> their shoes. He found this very mysterious.............
>
> I do not........ we need to do better, I need to do better.
>
> with respect to all,
>
> Sandy Miller
> www.sandymillerpottery.com
> http://www.painefalls.blogspot.com/
>
--
http://sourcherrypottery.com
http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com
Sandy miller on fri 9 jul 10
Morning!
Arts Councils......... we had a good one in Cleveland years ago. You paid
your dues of $25 and they published maps and organized studio tours once a
year. Gave us a ton of publicity and it was good. But they were so
successful corruption followed and the jig was up, NOVA (northern Ohio
visual artists) was drummed out of town......as you say TC, as so it goes.
Watched non-profit Fusion, http://www.clayandglass.on.ca/fusion/ put on a
grand conference several years back and thought you Canucks had finally put
it together for the artists. Hope it's still working for you.
gotta be off this morning to pick up clay......... daylights burning!
Sandy Miller
www.sandymillerpottery.com
On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:40 PM, tony clennell wrot=
e:
> Sandy: so it goes! Here in Ontario we have the Ontario Arts Council.
> They have a multi storey building in downtown Toronto where real
> estate is in the millions. They have dozens of employees, pamphlets,
> website, jurying etc etc all to hand out about $100,000 dollars in
> grants to the visual arts. The pyramid is inverted. The artists hold
> on their broad shoulders a huge bureaucracy of paid employees.
> It is a jagged pill to swallow when someone has a salary and bennies
> and they are courting the same audience as the artist.
> cheers,'
> tony
>
> On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:05 AM, Sandy Miller
> wrote:
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Sandy miller
> > To: Elisabeth Maurland
> > Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:38:21 -0400
> > Subject: Re: Pricing. Can we talk?
> > Well Bravo Elisabeth!
> >
> > By the way I am a huge fan of your work and thank you for taking the ti=
me
> to
> > post on the topic!
> >
> > I have watched this for years and the debate has raged for years. Whil=
e
> the
> > ceramic artists have
> > stood by watching sales stagnate (not for all!) I watched the glass
> artists
> > prices climb up the charts.
> > Why?
> > The glass artists are doing a pretty good job at educating the public
> what
> > they do to produce their work and why it's so damn special. I have
> floated
> > through the glass galleries of Riley Hawk and others and been poured a
> glass
> > of wine by the gallery steward while picking up my jaw off the ground
> upon
> > seeing the price tags.
> >
> > I am amazed that a couple guys in our town set up furnaces, make so-so
> work
> > and the price tags they put
> > on their work. They have an open studio and dedicate much of their to
> demo.
> > Goblets are $100. I was
> > somewhat shocked as I had my potter's head on and thought $35 tops, guy=
s.
> > My inside voice said; "I make glass, what the hell is glaze?" But I
> walked
> > past the line of folks lined up at the cash register cradling their won=
ky
> > purchases.
> >
> > Fiber Artists also have a diehard public of educated buyers who are
> > collecting and putting their money where their mouth is.
> >
> > We just had a dinnerware show in Cleveland, Ohio. 17 ceramic artists,
> all
> > professional and prices ranged
> > between $25 - $400 for a 10" dinner plate. The $25 dinner plate was
> > beautiful! I think more than any other craft form other than furniture =
we
> > really get caught in that art/craft debate. Most folks in my neck of t=
he
> > woods don't want to spend $400 on a dinner plate nor do they understand
> why
> > the plate is $400.
> >
> > When potters council formed I really thought........ahhhhh finally, we
> are
> > on our way. My hope was if we came together as a group we could tackle
> this
> > elephant. They have brought awareness to potters but not sure they
> > have tackled public education. After a long break from Potters Council=
I
> > just re-joined and yes I had to turn over couch cushions to find the
> money
> > for the membership. After a lengthy phone conversation this week with =
a
> > dear friend about the pros and cons of Potters Council I hung up, went =
to
> > the studio and had an epiphany that sort of piffed me off. Potters
> Council
> > is NOT going to make me a better potter. So use it for the health
> > insurance, mastercard/visa or any other benefits they offer. I don't
> need
> > to attend conferences, I need to sit and produce work. I need to figur=
e
> how
> > to make few more dollars to pay my bills, not spend more.
> >
> > Do you know how many "professional" ceramic artists do not have time or
> > money to attend NCECA?
> >
> > Elisabeth, I hear your frustration and I live your frustration. You're
> in
> > Iowa, I'm in Ohio, a successful potter once told me head to the costs a=
nd
> > get out of the midwest.
> >
> > I will never forget talking to Don Reitz so many years ago at SOFA on t=
he
> > Navy Pier in Chicago. I was pie eyed at meeting him and he was so
> gracious.
> > A glass gallery was representing him and had a display of his huge
> > signature pieces. His observation: I see them coming......... The guy=
s
> > with the shined shoes and pinky rings go right for the glass. I see my
> > audience and they have a mohawk hair cut, pierced body parts and clay o=
n
> > their shoes. He found this very mysterious.............
> >
> > I do not........ we need to do better, I need to do better.
> >
> > with respect to all,
> >
> > Sandy Miller
> > www.sandymillerpottery.com
> > http://www.painefalls.blogspot.com/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://sourcherrypottery.com
> http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com
>
Paul Lewing on fri 9 jul 10
On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:05 AM, Sandy Miller
wrote:
>
> I am amazed that a couple guys in our town set up furnaces, make so-
> so work
> and the price tags they put
> on their work. They have an open studio and dedicate much of their
> to demo.
> Goblets are $100. I was
> somewhat shocked as I had my potter's head on and thought $35 tops,
> guys.
I once went with another potter to a glass show opening. We were
talking to some of the glass blowers when one of them asked us what we
did. When we said we worked in clay, one of them said, in the most
scornful, dismissive tone imaginable, "Yeah- glass with a dirt backing!"
For years I've priced my tile work by the square foot. Lately I've
been doing quite a bit of painting on canvas with acrylic paint. When
it comes time to price them, I double my tile square footage rate and
that puts me just about in the middle of the price range for unknown
painters. If they were oil, I probably could charge more. Go
figure. When I first started doing the acrylics about a year and a
half ago, my first reaction in comparison to glazes, or even china
paint was, Damn this is easy!
Paul Lewing
www.paullewingtile.com
www.paullewingart.com
Lee Love on fri 9 jul 10
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Paul Lewing wrote:
> half ago, my first reaction in comparison to glazes, or even china
> paint was, Damn this is easy!
Problem is, everybody's uncle paints in oil. Just need a box of
paints, canvas and some brushes. Do it in your spare bedroom.
Many frustrated painters come and decorate on clay because there
is less competition.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Lee Love on sat 10 jul 10
I get it Riki. I do 2D work too, woodblock printing. It tends to
be seen as functional and production work, so doesn't get the prices
paintings do, though like pot making, it takes much more diverse
skills (originally, separate craftsmen did the carving and printing
for the artist.)
. It's craft nature is partly why I am drawn to print making,
because I don't just want to sell work to the wealthy.
Maybe the problem with painting on canvas is that their
prices are too inflated because they are a part of the "fake"
investment economy.
Then again, your expensive painting might be expensive, but
it don't pay the bills if nobody buys it.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Rikki Gill on sat 10 jul 10
Hi Lee,
I don't think you quite 'get it'.
I love to paint pots. I love to use glazes as paints, because the intensit=
y
of glaze colors, to me, is beyond that of any paint. I love both clay and
glaze as mediums. I get brush effects with glaze in a way I don't think I
can get otherwise. Why choose just one if you have the option of both?
I think many potters feel and do as I do. The problem is most people who
are not knowledgeable don't accept painting on pots as paintings.
They lower the value to 'decoration'. Call it what you will, it is
painting,
and long ago outgrew the spare bedroom.
Best,
Rikki Gill
rikigil@sbcglobal.net
www.rikkigillceramics.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Love"
To:
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: pricing can we talk?
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Paul Lewing wrote:
> half ago, my first reaction in comparison to glazes, or even china
> paint was, Damn this is easy!
Problem is, everybody's uncle paints in oil. Just need a box of
paints, canvas and some brushes. Do it in your spare bedroom.
Many frustrated painters come and decorate on clay because there
is less competition.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
"Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent." --Rumi
Lee Love on sat 10 jul 10
On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 6:25 PM, marci and rex wrote=
=3D
:
The part I don't get, is why potters and ceramicist are so
envious of fine art painters, who, for the most part, have a far more
difficult time making a living from their work. The envy is
misplace.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
marci and rex on sat 10 jul 10
At 11:48 AM 7/10/2010, Rikki Gill wrote:
>Hi Lee,
>
>I don't think you quite 'get it'.
>I love to paint pots. I love to use glazes as paints, because the intensi=
ty
>of glaze colors, to me, is beyond that of any paint. I love both clay and
>glaze as mediums. I get brush effects with glaze in a way I don't think I
>can get otherwise. Why choose just one if you have the option of both?
>I think many potters feel and do as I do. The problem is most people who
>are not knowledgeable don't accept painting on pots as paintings.
>They lower the value to 'decoration'. Call it what you will, it is
>painting,
>and long ago outgrew the spare bedroom.
HI Rikki,
Youre right. Lee doesnt get it..
Many chinapainters work in other mediums as well and keep coming
back to chinapainting because of the effects you can get working
layer on layer with the translucent paints. And there are also other
effects that can't be gotten any other way .. like fusing glass to
clay ... or luster work .
And there is also the challenge of working on a " canvas" that is
sculptural .
We dont do it because there are too many other oil painters or
watercolorists.
You're also right when you say that it IS painting. With
overglaze techniques,especially , it is possible to rival the subtle
effects that can be gotten with any other art medium. The only
difference is the backing is clay , not canvas.
Anyone who is wanting to learn more about overglaze is welcome to
email me at any time and I would also like to invite you all to visit
our PPIO forum www.PPIOforum.com . There are many lessons up ,
including some video , currently mostly about specific subjects ,
like portraits.. but we are working on getting more information up on
technique alone.
Marci the chinapainter
www.PPIOforum.com
Lis Allison on sun 11 jul 10
On July 10, 2010, you wrote:
>
> The part I don't get, is why potters and ceramicist are so
> envious of fine art painters, who, for the most part, have a far more
> difficult time making a living from their work. The envy is
> misplace.
>
I think we'd like the respect and admiration painters seem to get, at
least within the art world. Also we see the prices on their work and swoon
with envy.
Seems to me there are Clay Artists and there are potters, and the two
species intergrade, to use a botanical analogy. This is one reason it is
so hard to set standards or to define good work.
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
website: www.pine-ridge.ca
Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Larry Kruzan on mon 12 jul 10
Ten points to Lis for using a word that was totally new to Clayart.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Lis Allison
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 5:22 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: pricing can we talk?
On July 10, 2010, you wrote:
>
> The part I don't get, is why potters and ceramicist are so
> envious of fine art painters, who, for the most part, have a far more
> difficult time making a living from their work. The envy is
> misplace.
>
I think we'd like the respect and admiration painters seem to get, at
least within the art world. Also we see the prices on their work and swoon
with envy.
Seems to me there are Clay Artists and there are potters, and the two
species intergrade, to use a botanical analogy. This is one reason it is
so hard to set standards or to define good work.
Lis
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
(Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15410)
http://www.pctools.com/
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
gayle bair on mon 12 jul 10
Perhaps Mel will share with us his story of the painter, the price for =3D
the painting and the price the painter paid!
It might put things into perspective.=3D20
=3D46rom my perspective having been a painter I saw precious few painters =
=3D
getting respect, admiration and/or prices.
Sadly it was not always the ones who had real promise and talent =3D
receiving the glory.
Gayle Bair
Bainbridge Island WA
Tucson AZ
gayle@claybair.com
www.claybair.com
On Jul 11, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Lis Allison wrote:
> On July 10, 2010, you wrote:
>=3D20
>>=3D20
>> The part I don't get, is why potters and ceramicist are so
>> envious of fine art painters, who, for the most part, have a far more
>> difficult time making a living from their work. The envy is
>> misplace.
>>=3D20
>=3D20
> I think we'd like the respect and admiration painters seem to get, at
> least within the art world. Also we see the prices on their work and =3D
swoon
> with envy.
>=3D20
> Seems to me there are Clay Artists and there are potters, and the two
> species intergrade, to use a botanical analogy. This is one reason it =3D
is
> so hard to set standards or to define good work.
>=3D20
> Lis
>=3D20
>=3D20
> --
> Elisabeth Allison
> Pine Ridge Studio
> website: www.pine-ridge.ca
> Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
> Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Lee Love on mon 12 jul 10
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Lis Allison wrote:
>
> I think we'd like the respect and admiration painters seem to get, at
> least within the art world. Also we see the prices on their work and swoo=
=3D
n
> with envy.
Maybe our standards are higher than in painting? I know many
potters who receive great admiration and respect. MacKenzie recieved
the 2nd McKnight Distinguished Artist award offered here in Minnesota:
http://www.mnartists.org/work.do?rid=3D3D15225
> Seems to me there are Clay Artists and there are potters, and the two
> species intergrade, to use a botanical analogy. This is one reason it is
> so hard to set standards or to define good work.
If you want to be an artist and make clay things, I can think of
no better example than Isamu Noguchi. But again, for every artist
superstar, there are hundreds of thousands waiting tables, flipping
burgers, just to get by. It is very much harder to make a living in
the fine arts. I envy them, not in the lest. It is like the millions
playing basketball. Do we envy the inner city kids playing roundball
at the park because of Michael Jordan. That's exactly how our envy
of painters look, if you think of the whole picture.
But for respect and admiration, you can go to our MIA and you'll
see many potters and clay artists on exhibit in the contemporary area.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
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