Lee Love on wed 2 dec 09
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:04 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> our well is 180 feet deep and the water is as rich as can be.
> we love and respect our water. =3DA0we have a great deal, and no,
> we will not ship it to arizona.
Water is the 21st century's oil.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
mel jacobson on wed 2 dec 09
i have added a picture of our "hay creek', at our farm in wisconsin.
speaking of water, clear, steady and why we love our farm.
it is the water.
the one resource we cannot live without.
anyone can drink from this creek...all spring fed.
our well is 180 feet deep and the water is as rich as can be.
we love and respect our water. we have a great deal, and no,
we will not ship it to arizona.
mel
click the clayart page below.
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
Ann Brink on wed 2 dec 09
Lovely! How about another picture in June, when everything will be green an=
d
leafy?
Ann Brink in Lompoc CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "mel jacobson"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 3:04 PM
Subject: hay creek picture
>i have added a picture of our "hay creek', at our farm in wisconsin.
> speaking of water, clear, steady and why we love our farm.
> it is the water.
> the one resource we cannot live without.
> anyone can drink from this creek...all spring fed.
>
> our well is 180 feet deep and the water is as rich as can be.
> we love and respect our water. we have a great deal, and no,
> we will not ship it to arizona.
> mel
> click the clayart page below.
> from: minnetonka, mn
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
> new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
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23:33:00
logan johnson on thu 3 dec 09
Hey Mel,
So THAT'S what the famous Hay Creek looks like !!! That pic of the creek=
sure looks like a beautiful X-Mas card
to me ! The only thing that would make it "better" would be seeing one of=
your pieces in there somewhere.
But that's just my silly opinion.
Stay warm !
Logan
Logan Johnson
Yakima Valley Pottery & Supply
719 W Nob Hill Blvd. Ste C
Yakima, WA 98902
509.469.6966
www.audeostudios.com
"Carpe Argillam!!"
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/01/09
23:33:00
Carl Finch on thu 3 dec 09
At 03:04 PM 12/2/2009, mel jacobson wrote:
>i have added a picture of our "hay creek', at our farm in wisconsin.
>speaking of water, clear, steady and why we love our farm.
>it is the water.
>the one resource we cannot live without.
>anyone can drink from this creek...
Yes, anyone. Including deer, raccoons, possums, and all sorts of
woodland rodents. What appears to us as a pristine source of
drinking water appears to those critturs as that also......and as a
toilet as well!
My wife ingested gardia lamblia 30+ years ago on a backpacking trek
after drinking clear, cool water from just such a lovely
creek. Diagnosis in those days was slow and difficult. The symptoms
were dreadful!
Since then we no longer hang our 'Sierra cups' on the outside of our packs!
> clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
Real purty, nonetheless!
--Carl
Medford, Oregon
Vince Pitelka on thu 3 dec 09
Lee Love wrote:
"Water is the 21st century's oil."
How do you get it to burn?
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Sherron & Jim Bowen on thu 3 dec 09
"How do you get it to burn?"
Same as you do oil. Refine it. Use an industrial process to break it down
into H and O2, then burn the H.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Pitelka"
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: hay creek picture
> Lee Love wrote:
> "Water is the 21st century's oil."
>
> How do you get it to burn?
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
James Freeman on fri 4 dec 09
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Sherron & Jim Bowen <
jbowen43@prairienetworks.com> wrote:
"How do you get it to burn?"
Same as you do oil. Refine it. Use an industrial process to break it down
into H and O2, then burn the H.
Hydrogen gas is produced from natural gas, not water. While water can be
split into hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis, the process is quite
inefficient, and consumes more energy (and electrolytes) as an input than
can be produced by the hydrogen that is released. It would be like putting
$1 of external electrical energy into the system to produce, say, $.80 wort=
h
of hydrogen energy. The math just doesn't work. Sorry.
Take care.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
Philip Poburka on fri 4 dec 09
Hi Michael, all...
Yeah well...what ol' Uncle-Scam has to say about folks or small
local/regional outfits distilling their own Ethyl Alcohol or Alcohol-Medley=
s
for 'fuel', is only a few steps less absurd and offensive to common sense a=
s
the cooked-books 'magic bullet theory' was/is.
Eeeeeeeesh...
Simple 'Solar' Stills...would do fine in many areas, and, aside from initia=
l
set up cost, a one or two or three family set-up ( Black 'Hoses',
thermo-siphon, some insulation, whatever, at a cost of what, free materials
to a few hundred bucks? ) would cost about nothing to run.
You can also run a Still initially on anything which makes enough Heat to
evaporate Alcohol from Water...hell, a 'Manure Pile' would do...then, diver=
t
a small amount of the ALCOHOL being removed from the Aqueous Mash/Ferments,
to run the Still there-after.
Yadayadayada...
Anyway...
Ethyl Alcohol would be best for erstwhile Gasolene Engines and burns
super-clean...but, 'fusil oil' or Wood Alcohols or mixes will do alright
also, if usually less 'clean'.
So...depending on what one has to Ferment...one can get as one may, the
kinds/medleys of Alcohols one may.
Nor need the Alcohols be used on their own entirely, since one can mix them
with Gasolene.
Plain old Acetone, added to Gasolene gives better mileage and far 'cleaner'
Combustion, anyway.
My old Chevrolet Step Van ( 235 in-line "6", Carter 'Ball & Ball" Updraft,
5,200 lbs Curb Weight, flat-slightly-rounded front, 8-1/2 feet tall ) in
City driving, gets around 9 Miles-per-Gallon on the 87 Octane Pump Gas from
any Gas Station.
Adding a Half-Pint of plain old Acetone to a full 20 Gallon Tank, I get
right on to "11" and sometimes pushing "12" MPG.
Try this -
Hold your breath waiting for Uncle Scam to hand you that handy little
'tip'...seeing as he care so much and all.
For $15.00 in bought-new parts, I or any other Boy or Girl can augment the
fuel with Hydrogen, using - in my case - extra Electricity from the Van's 1=
2
Generator, and a small 'On Demand' Carboy of 'Water' wired through the "On"
position of the Ignition Switch, and, similarly, improve Combustion
efficiency, and, Mileage, probably by 10-to-15 percent.
Not too shabby...
Ohhhhh....anyway...
Whatchagunnadew...
'Interesting times'
Love,
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Wendt"
>I hate to hurt anyone's feelings but water is no way like
> oil as a burnable energy source. You need to apply an
> external energy source to water to convert it to Hydrogen
> and Oxygen.
> I contrast, oil requires only the application of an ignition
> source and atmospheric oxygen to produce energy. This is the
> same thinking that is resulting in federally subsidized
> ethanol production. A recent article about ethanol
> production on the History channel pointed out that a gallon
> of petroleum is consumed to produce 5 quarts of ethanol
> when all energy inputs and transport costs are added in.
> The resulting fuel is virtually a wash in terms of energy
> gain and results in poorer fuel economy, corrosion to engine
> parts and generally poorer engine performance.
> Pure water for drinking and farming will be in demand,
> however.
> Regards,
> Michael Wendt
Lee Love on fri 4 dec 09
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Michael Wendt wrote:
> I hate to hurt anyone's feelings but water is no way like
> oil as a burnable energy source.
This is funny. You guys are "literally" hilarious!
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Carolyn Boeri on fri 4 dec 09
Yes, Lee and Vince,
water IS like oil, when you harness it, it can make a good profit and it
can be done much more greenly then oil, if you know what I mean.
Carolyn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Pitelka"
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: hay creek picture
> Lee Love wrote:
> "Water is the 21st century's oil."
>
> How do you get it to burn?
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
>
Lee Love on fri 4 dec 09
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Sherron & Jim Bowen
wrote:
> "How do you get it to burn?"
> Same as you do oil. Refine it. Use an industrial process to break it down
> into H and O2, then burn the H.
James,
Mel ain't just joking about not shipping our water to the
desert. There was a plan in the '70s, to block off the Hudson Bay,
turning it into a fresh water lake, and then pumping water from the
Great Lakes out to the western deserts. As the Ogala aquifer is
pumped down, and as climate change hits the grain belt, there will be
pressures to ship great lake water out that way again. Check out
the Council Of Great Lakes Govenors here (organization of Great Lakes
States, Inculding Ontario and Quebec:
http://www.cglg.org/
The aquifers are even in more danger in China. China will be
cashing in on our debt when the sh*t hits the fan, buying up grain
(Lester Brown calls grain "portable water") driving up food prices
around the world.
http://climateprogress.org/2009/05/01/lester-brown-scientific-american-food=
=3D
-shortages-there-is-no-bo/
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Michael Wendt on fri 4 dec 09
I hate to hurt anyone's feelings but water is no way like
oil as a burnable energy source. You need to apply an
external energy source to water to convert it to Hydrogen
and Oxygen.
I contrast, oil requires only the application of an ignition
source and atmospheric oxygen to produce energy. This is the
same thinking that is resulting in federally subsidized
ethanol production. A recent article about ethanol
production on the History channel pointed out that a gallon
of petroleum is consumed to produce 5 quarts of ethanol
when all energy inputs and transport costs are added in.
The resulting fuel is virtually a wash in terms of energy
gain and results in poorer fuel economy, corrosion to engine
parts and generally poorer engine performance.
Pure water for drinking and farming will be in demand,
however.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Gwynneth Rixon on sat 5 dec 09
No=3D2C water is not physically like oil.
You CAN live without oil- its been done before=3D2C it will be a massive ch=
an=3D
ge when it comes=3D2C whenever that is.=3D20
The point is that you CANNOT live without water.
Most of the present warring is about oil. But there is more and more argu=
=3D
ing about water=3D2C and people moving because there is no water=3D2C and o=
ther=3D
s not wanting them...
gwynneth
> Date: Fri=3D2C 4 Dec 2009 18:22:05 -0800
> From: wendtpot@GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: hay creek picture
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=3D20
> I hate to hurt anyone's feelings but water is no way like
> oil as a burnable energy source. You need to apply an
> external energy source to water to convert it to Hydrogen
> and Oxygen.
> I contrast=3D2C oil requires only the application of an ignition
> source and atmospheric oxygen to produce energy. This is the
> same thinking that is resulting in federally subsidized
> ethanol production. A recent article about ethanol
> production on the History channel pointed out that a gallon
> of petroleum is consumed to produce 5 quarts of ethanol
> when all energy inputs and transport costs are added in.
> The resulting fuel is virtually a wash in terms of energy
> gain and results in poorer fuel economy=3D2C corrosion to engine
> parts and generally poorer engine performance.
> Pure water for drinking and farming will be in demand=3D2C
> however.
> Regards=3D2C
> Michael Wendt
=3D20
_________________________________________________________________
Add your Gmail and Yahoo! Mail email accounts into Hotmail - it's easy
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394592/direct/01/=3D
Lee Love on sat 5 dec 09
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Gwynneth Rixon wro=
=3D
te:
> Most of the present warring is about oil. =3DA0 But there is more and mor=
e =3D
arguing about >water, and people moving because there is no water, and othe=
=3D
rs not wanting them...
I live in a "Saudi Arabia" of water. The Great Lakes
States and Provinces have banded together to make sure we don't pipe
the water out to other places.
http://www.glslregionalbody.org/
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Seele Robert on sat 5 dec 09
On Dec 4, 2009, at 9:44 PM, James Freeman wrote:
It would be like putting $1 of external electrical energy into the
system to produce, say, $.80 worth of hydrogen energy. The math just
doesn't work. Sorry.
OR !!!
It would be like putting $1 of tax money into the system to produce,
say, $.80 worth of jobs. The math just doesn't work. Sorry.
Tung in cheek, or creek .......
It works all the time.
For the government, annyway. ;)
Take the diplomacy out of war and the thing would fall flat in a
week. Will Rogers
James Freeman on sat 5 dec 09
Phil...
Acetone: I don't think it can do anything. On road fuel mileage is not a
reasonable test method, as there are about a zillion variables which cannot
be eliminated or controlled from test to test. For example, my pickup truc=
k
(which I just sold), a big, nasty, environment-eating Dodge Ram, gets
anywhere from 10 to 12.5 MPG, all without any meaningful variation in how o=
r
where it is driven or in the type or brand of fuel burned. My car, a sedan
with a very high tech and relatively high performance computer controlled 6=
,
gets anywhere from 25 to 31 MPG, again with no meaningful variation in how
or where it was driven. There are simply too many random and subtle things
going on to attribute tiny changes in fuel economy to any one factor.
Here is a link to an article which does a pretty good job of debunking many
of the assumptions upon which the original acetone article was based:
http://www.fuelsaving.info/acetone.htm . Also, the Mythbusters TV show did
an episode called The Great Gas Conspiracy in which they tested acetone,
hydrogen produced via electrolysis, and a number of other magic devices in =
a
car atop a dynamometer (in order to eliminate all of the myriad "on road"
variables). None of them worked at all, and the acetone actually decreased
gas mileage.
If acetone did work, far from trying to hide the information, big greedy oi=
l
companies would shout it from the rooftops, add it to their gas, then charg=
e
us a bundle for the new "Super Premium Super Gas Mileage" gasoline. They
would sell a ton of it and make astronomical profits. Further, acetone is
made from oil!
Hydrogen: Even if this did work, there is no "extra", and therefore "free"
electricity being produced by a car's alternator. In order to draw more
power from a generator, you need to increase the mechanical power input to
the generator. Think back to those generator headlights many of us had on
our bicycles lo these many years ago. As soon as you engaged the generator=
,
you had to pedal your *ss off just to run a tiny little light bulb. In
effect, you would burn say $1.10 worth of extra gasoline to produce $1 wort=
h
of electrical energy to be used to produce $.80 of hydrogen energy.
Take care.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Philip Poburka wrote:
>
> Plain old Acetone, added to Gasolene gives better mileage and far 'cleane=
r'
> Combustion, anyway.
>
>
> My old Chevrolet Step Van ( 235 in-line "6", Carter 'Ball & Ball" Updraft=
,
> 5,200 lbs Curb Weight, flat-slightly-rounded front, 8-1/2 feet tall ) in
> City driving, gets around 9 Miles-per-Gallon on the 87 Octane Pump Gas fr=
om
> any Gas Station.
>
>
> Adding a Half-Pint of plain old Acetone to a full 20 Gallon Tank, I get
> right on to "11" and sometimes pushing "12" MPG.
>
>
>
>
> For $15.00 in bought-new parts, I or any other Boy or Girl can augment th=
e
> fuel with Hydrogen, using - in my case - extra Electricity from the Van's
> 12
> Generator, and a small 'On Demand' Carboy of 'Water' wired through the "O=
n"
> position of the Ignition Switch, and, similarly, improve Combustion
> efficiency, and, Mileage, probably by 10-to-15 percent.
>
>
Carl Finch on sat 5 dec 09
At 06:22 PM 12/4/2009, Michael Wendt wrote:
>I hate to hurt anyone's feelings but water is no way like
>oil as a burnable energy source. You need to apply an
>external energy source to water to convert it to Hydrogen
>and Oxygen.
WHAT?! You mean those ads I see alla time for automobile Hydrogen
generators ("Yes! Burn Tap Water in Your Car or Truck!") don't
ackshully work?! (Cuz any fool kin see the little hydrogen bubbles
comin' out of the top of the water reservoir)
Well, Golleeee! (ala Jim Nabors)
--Carl
in Medford, Oregon
Electrolysis Car Power: for those who slept through 9th grade science
Philip Poburka on sun 6 dec 09
Hi James, all...
It doesn't matter...at least, not in this sort of way anyway.
TVmythbusters are not my appointed High Priests to the Cosmos, nor, to
practical management and use of my Step Van
So...
Oye
Love,
Phil
Lv
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Freeman"
> Phil...
>
> Acetone: I don't think it can do anything. On road fuel mileage is not =
a
> reasonable test method, as there are about a zillion variables which
> cannot
> be eliminated or controlled from test to test. For example, my pickup
> truck
> (which I just sold), a big, nasty, environment-eating Dodge Ram, gets
> anywhere from 10 to 12.5 MPG, all without any meaningful variation in how
> or
> where it is driven or in the type or brand of fuel burned. My car, a
> sedan
> with a very high tech and relatively high performance computer controlled
> 6,
> gets anywhere from 25 to 31 MPG, again with no meaningful variation in ho=
w
> or where it was driven. There are simply too many random and subtle
> things
> going on to attribute tiny changes in fuel economy to any one factor.
>
> Here is a link to an article which does a pretty good job of debunking
> many
> of the assumptions upon which the original acetone article was based:
> http://www.fuelsaving.info/acetone.htm . Also, the Mythbusters TV show
> did
> an episode called The Great Gas Conspiracy in which they tested acetone,
> hydrogen produced via electrolysis, and a number of other magic devices i=
n
> a
> car atop a dynamometer (in order to eliminate all of the myriad "on road"
> variables). None of them worked at all, and the acetone actually
> decreased
> gas mileage.
>
> If acetone did work, far from trying to hide the information, big greedy
> oil
> companies would shout it from the rooftops, add it to their gas, then
> charge
> us a bundle for the new "Super Premium Super Gas Mileage" gasoline. They
> would sell a ton of it and make astronomical profits. Further, acetone i=
s
> made from oil!
>
> Hydrogen: Even if this did work, there is no "extra", and therefore
> "free"
> electricity being produced by a car's alternator. In order to draw more
> power from a generator, you need to increase the mechanical power input t=
o
> the generator. Think back to those generator headlights many of us had o=
n
> our bicycles lo these many years ago. As soon as you engaged the
> generator,
> you had to pedal your *ss off just to run a tiny little light bulb. In
> effect, you would burn say $1.10 worth of extra gasoline to produce $1
> worth
> of electrical energy to be used to produce $.80 of hydrogen energy.
>
> Take care.
>
> ...James
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