mel jacobson on wed 4 nov 09
cheap grades cheapen the teacher and the program.
ask any choir director:
`do students like hard songs/ classy work, or just the easy stuff?
universal answer.
`the harder the better, the greater the challenge the more
they work to achieve`.
we only cheapen our self and our students when the grade is cheap.
this is becoming a hard lesson for education to learn. we are falling
over the edge of a deep cliff.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
Randall Moody on thu 5 nov 09
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Arnold Howard wrot=
e:
> From: "mel jacobson"
>
> cheap grades cheapen the teacher and the program.
>>
>
> That is happening in the karate world, too. At one time a
> black belt test lasted several grueling hours. When the
> student could barely stand, more opponents were tossed in to
> fight him. No water breaks were allowed. Contact was hard.
> But when you went home covered with bruises, the new belt
> was a treasure.
>
> Karate schools eventually discovered that students dropped
> out due to difficult testing, so the tests and the classes
> became easier.
>
>
In my small dojo in Japan nobody wore colored belts or "obi" as a rule. You
never knew how good your partner was until it was too late. :)
--
Randall in Atlanta
Weiland, Jeff on thu 5 nov 09
This "self-esteem-don't-tell-them-they-can't- hack-it" garbage is a disease=
=3D
that dates back a long time. This approach to education is destroying inte=
=3D
grity. I am not saying it is okay to degrade and beat down students. Just g=
=3D
et honest and realistic with them. In the system where I teach, all student=
=3D
s K through 8 have a minimum grade of 52%. That is right, 52%. Even if they=
=3D
do absolutely nothing, they still get 52% recorded. By order of corporatio=
=3D
n administrators. Self-esteem issues. This has resulted in students in high=
=3D
school expecting to slide by, doing nothing, and still getting credit. We =
=3D
are on a 9-weeks system and the administration does not want a low "F" one =
=3D
grading period to determine the semester grade. They are trying to get the =
=3D
high school to adopt the same policy but so far we have successfully refuse=
=3D
d. If so, give em all A's and forget it because it means nothing. We have t=
=3D
o grade as objectively as possible, but in the end, we still must rely on o=
=3D
ur opinion of that student's work in relationship to a standard that we hav=
=3D
e established. Who knows where this downhill integrity slide will end.
Jeff Weiland
Greenfield-Central High School
810 North Broadway
Greenfield, Indiana 46140
317-462-9211
jweiland@gcsc.k12.in.us
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of mel jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:34 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: cheap grades
cheap grades cheapen the teacher and the program.
ask any choir director:
`do students like hard songs/ classy work, or just the easy stuff?
universal answer.
`the harder the better, the greater the challenge the more
they work to achieve`.
we only cheapen our self and our students when the grade is cheap.
this is becoming a hard lesson for education to learn. we are falling
over the edge of a deep cliff.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
Randall Moody on thu 5 nov 09
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Weiland, Jeff wrot=
e:
> This "self-esteem-don't-tell-them-they-can't- hack-it" garbage is a disea=
se
> that dates back a long time. This approach to education is destroying
> integrity. I am not saying it is okay to degrade and beat down students.
> Just get honest and realistic with them. In the system where I teach, all
> students K through 8 have a minimum grade of 52%. That is right, 52%. Eve=
n
> if they do absolutely nothing, they still get 52% recorded. By order of
> corporation administrators. Self-esteem issues. This has resulted in
> students in high school expecting to slide by, doing nothing, and still
> getting credit. We are on a 9-weeks system and the administration does no=
t
> want a low "F" one grading period to determine the semester grade. They a=
re
> trying to get the high school to adopt the same policy but so far we have
> successfully refused. If so, give em all A's and forget it because it mea=
ns
> nothing. We have to grade as objectively as possible, but in the end, we
> still must rely on our opinion of that student's work in relationship to =
a
> standard that we have established. Who knows where this downhill integrit=
y
> slide will end.
>
>
> Jeff Weiland
>
While I don't teach in the school system here in Georgia I do have many
teachers in my classes. Georgia has the HOPE scholarship which uses lottery
money to fund any student who graduates with a "B" average and is accepted
to a state school. This has been linked to grade inflation since, according
to many of my students, nobody wants to be the teacher that stands in the
way of little Johnny or Suzie from going to college. Many of the
universities are offering remedial courses in Math and English.
When I was pre-med (long story) I remember hearing many of my cohorts
complaining that Art History shouldn't be this hard! I pointed out that art
has been around possibly longer than medicine so it only stands to reason
that it would be more difficult.
--
Randall in Atlanta
Arnold Howard on thu 5 nov 09
From: "mel jacobson"
> cheap grades cheapen the teacher and the program.
That is happening in the karate world, too. At one time a
black belt test lasted several grueling hours. When the
student could barely stand, more opponents were tossed in to
fight him. No water breaks were allowed. Contact was hard.
But when you went home covered with bruises, the new belt
was a treasure.
Karate schools eventually discovered that students dropped
out due to difficult testing, so the tests and the classes
became easier.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
Lee Love on thu 5 nov 09
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Arnold Howard wrot=
=3D
e:
>
> Karate schools eventually discovered that students dropped
> out due to difficult testing, so the tests and the classes
> became easier.
I see the armed forces ads look like they are recruiting folks
who spend a lot of time playing video games.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D97tha=
t is, "T=3D
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
John Post on thu 5 nov 09
Once you start to make work for yourself, grading becomes
meaningless. Most people who work for a grade, act like they are
working for a grade. They have nine million questions about whether
they are doing something right. Is this paper long enough? Did I
make enough pots? How many references do I need for my paper?
It's as if the grade is somehow going to help them get through life.
Real learning requires some self reflection. Is what I am learning
helping me to get where I want to get.
This can apply to pots, computers, science whatever. At some point a
student needs to take ownership of the learning process. If you are
working to teach yourself something, you are working at a much deeper
and involved level.
Of course this is a double-edged sword, if you spell out all of the
expectations for an A, then you will have the students who work up to,
but not past those expectations. If you don't spell it out for some
students they panic and don't know what to do.
A friend of mine who is a pilot and gives flying lessons says that
before a student of his can solo, he has to be 100% confident that
this student knows all he or she needs to know about flying that plane
or they could potentially die at some point in the process. I guess
you can't get a B in flying. You either get it, or you don't.
The biggest reason for grades is so that schools have an easier time
of filtering out students. It's expected that you have a 4.0+ to get
into Harvard. Then on top of that, you have to do community service,
special projects, demonstrate leadership, get reference letters etc.
One of my former students who went there, told me it was harder to get
into Harvard, than to be a Harvard student.
The reference letter is my favorite. What that says, is that the
grade is not enough information, can you write more good stuff about
me. I was once asked to write reference letters for some of my
students who wanted to become high school cheerleaders. I wrote
"Britt is highly qualified to be a cheerleader, in fact, I have even
seen her walking and chewing gum at the same time."
It gets a little silly at times how serious people take grades when
the are in school, and how meaningless they become outside of school.
When I buy pots, I don't ask the potter, "What grade did you get in
ceramics?"
When you go to interview for a job as a teacher, if the interview
doesn't go well, they aren't going to then look at your report card
and say "Look all A's, we better hire this guy."
The best thing the arts have going for them is that many times
portfolio reviews are used. The work then gets to speak volumes about
the maker.
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan
:: cone 6 glaze website :: http://www.johnpost.us
:: elementary art website :: http://www.wemakeart.org
steve graber on fri 6 nov 09
i rejected an engineering job interview for today because step one was to t=
=3D
ake some WonderLic test.=3DA0 it's not a management style test (they are fu=
n)=3D
, not a test for creative capability or engineering knowledge.=3DA0 it's co=
mm=3D
only used for NFL players.=3DA0 it's some combined numbers and word thing.=
=3DA0=3D
30 minutes to speed thru.=3DA0 recall=3DA0SAT word relations?=3DA0 i took =
it as =3D
a requirement that all employees are expected to be dutiful obedient subord=
=3D
inates.=3DA0 i don't always fit in that box.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0Awith 30 years i=
n the in=3D
dustry, i always bring examples of my work to interviews.=3DA0 i also have =
pr=3D
oducts in home depot, walmart, CAT, Deere, etc.=3DA0 still $8 or $10 millio=
n =3D
a year in sales is still happening from products i designed at several comp=
=3D
anies. =3DA0so i skipped their company DUE to that test.=3DA0 i don't care =
to w=3D
ork for companies that believe tests like this one are meanigful.=3DA0 =3D0=
A=3D0A=3D
so, to me, in the "real" world a test is very meaningless.=3DA0=3D0A=3DA0St=
eve Gr=3D
aber, Graber's Pottery, Inc=3D0AClaremont, California USA=3D0AThe Steve Too=
l - =3D
for awesome texture on pots! =3D0Awww.graberspottery.com steve@graberspotte=
ry=3D
.com =3D0A=3D0A=3D0AOn Laguna Clay's website=3D0Ahttp://www.lagunaclay.com/=
blogs/ =3D
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A----- Original Message ----=3D0A> From: John Post post@WIDEO=3D
PENWEST.COM>=3D0A> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=3D0A> Sent: Thu, November 5=
, 20=3D
09 1:49:49 PM=3D0A> Subject: Re: cheap grades=3D0A> =3D0A> Once you start t=
o make=3D
work for yourself, grading becomes=3D0A> meaningless.=3DA0 Most people who=
wor=3D
k for a grade, act like they are=3D0A> working for a grade.=3DA0 They have =
nine=3D
million questions about whether=3D0A> they are doing something right.=3DA0=
Is =3D
this paper long enough?=3DA0 Did I=3D0A> make enough pots?=3DA0 How many re=
ferenc=3D
es do I need for my paper?=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
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