Claire Reishman on wed 17 sep 08
Vaseline and Clay: We are getting ready to have a workshop with=20=
an artist who wants to use clay to make a mold into which to pour=
concrete. He would cover the clay with vaseline. Can I recycle=
the clay with vaseline or does the vaseline ruin the clay which=20=
is used? Claire Reishman, Sewanee TN
Tony Ferguson on wed 17 sep 08
Can you recycle it for what? For any other mold types of things, sure, but not for throwing work you plan to fire. Plus, you will have concrete residue mixed with vaseline in the clay.
Tony Ferguson
Claire Reishman wrote: Vaseline and Clay: We are getting ready to have a workshop with an artist who wants to use clay to make a mold into which to pour concrete. He would cover the clay with vaseline. Can I recycle the clay with vaseline or does the vaseline ruin the clay which is used? Claire Reishman, Sewanee TN
Take Care,
Tony Ferguson
...where the sky meets the lake...
http://www.tonyferguson.net
John Rodgers on wed 17 sep 08
Once you have the vaseline in the clay, the clay is garbage for
pottery/sculpture purposes. If the concrete is poured directly against
the clay - and it could be because I see no reason to have a separation
barrier between the clay and the concrete - the concrete MAY leave a bit
of residue that would be present and undesirable in the clay after it is
processed. I often pour plaster against damp clay and it works great.
Concrete should work the same. After setting, any clay residual could be
washed off the concrete. Don't know about the other way around however -
cleaning the concrete residue off the clay. That could be problematic.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
Claire Reishman wrote:
> Vaseline and Clay: We are getting ready to have a workshop with an artist who wants to use clay to make a mold into which to pour concrete. He would cover the clay with vaseline. Can I recycle the clay with vaseline or does the vaseline ruin the clay which is used? Claire Reishman, Sewanee TN
>
>
>
Josh Berkus on wed 17 sep 08
On Wednesday 17 September 2008 07:42, Claire Reishman wrote:
> Vaseline and Clay: We are getting ready to have a workshop with an artist
> who wants to use clay to make a mold into which to pour concrete. He would
> cover the clay with vaseline. Can I recycle the clay with vaseline or does
> the vaseline ruin the clay which is used? Claire Reishman, Sewanee TN
You can use thick soap (I've used undiluted Green soap) instead of Vaseline.
This washes of the clay and/or biodegrades.
--
Josh "the Fuzzy" Berkus
San Francisco
lela martens on thu 18 sep 08
Our guild had a workshop by a well known potter here in western Canada who =
applies quite a bit of vaseline to his hands before throwing. He says it do=
esn`t affect the clay=2C and stays on the skin for a surprising length of t=
ime while throwing.
A great help to the health of his hand`s skin.
I`d be more concerned with bits of concrete in the clay. but maybe a lot o=
f vaseline would be detrimental. Why not test a bit?
=20
Lela=2C on the prairies where the weather is glorious.
> Date: Wed=2C 17 Sep 2008 15:45:04 -0700> From: fuzzy@AGLIODBS.COM> Subjec=
t: Re: Vaseline and Clay> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > On Wednesday 17 S=
eptember 2008 07:42=2C Claire Reishman wrote:> > Vaseline and Clay: We are =
getting ready to have a workshop with an artist> > who wants to use clay to=
make a mold into which to pour concrete. He would> > cover the clay with v=
aseline. Can I recycle the clay with vaseline or does> > the vaseline ruin =
the clay which is used? Claire Reishman=2C Sewanee TN>
_________________________________________________________________
Neon-Cat on thu 18 sep 08
On Wednesday 17 September 2008 07:42, Claire Reishman wrote:
"We are getting ready to have a workshop with an artist who wants to use
clay to make a mold into which to pour concrete. He would cover the clay
with vaseline. Can I recycle the clay with vaseline or does the vaseline
ruin the clay which is used?"
Hi Claire!
Vaseline is a mixture of petroleum mineral oils, paraffin and
microcrystalline waxes (saturated alkanes with carbon numbers generally
higher than 25). It is a non-polar, hydrophobic substance insoluble in
water. During your workshop the Vaseline will adsorb directly onto the
external clay surfaces and penetrate intra-crystalline channels and tunnels
where it will then coat the surfaces of individual clay mineral particles
and fill their inter-particle interstices. Kaolin and other types of clay
can adsorb quite a lot of petroleum oils and gels (montmorillonite < illite
< kaolinite < bentonite) so you'll end up with a large amount of
spontaneously flocculated clay-Vaseline colloids and agglomerates. If you
save and reuse this Vaseline-contaminated clay it will behave more like a
cohesionless material than any clay body you're probably use to working.
Vaseline will affect the wet and dry strength of your clay body as well as
its plasticity and cation exchange capacity. If you really want to save this
clay and can work around the concrete residue, fire the used clay to around
215 degrees C (419 degrees F) in an oxidation atmosphere (reduction might
leave undesirable soot in your clay body). Alkanes react with oxygen in
combustion reactions to form carbon dioxide and water. Stay under 400
degrees C (752 degrees F) or you'll begin to calcine the kaolin portion of
your clay. Depending on the volume of clay and Vaseline this process for
Vaseline removal shouldn't take too long. Afterwards you can reclaim the
lightly fired clay by standard methods.
Have a great workshop, Claire!
Marian
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sat 20 sep 08
No doubt about it, oils have a great affinity for clay. I use ball
clay to mop minor spots of oil that drop onto the concrete under our
cars. Fullers Earth is noted for this power. So I found the following
very interesting........
<microcrystalline waxes (saturated alkanes with carbon numbers
generally
higher than 25). It is a non-polar, hydrophobic substance insoluble in
water. During your workshop the Vaseline will adsorb directly onto the
external clay surfaces and penetrate intra-crystalline channels and
tunnels
where it will then coat the surfaces of individual clay mineral
particles
and fill their inter-particle interstices. Kaolin and other types of
clay
can adsorb quite a lot of petroleum oils and gels (montmorillonite <
illite
< kaolinite < bentonite) so you'll end up with a large amount of
spontaneously flocculated clay-Vaseline colloids and agglomerates. If
you
save and reuse this Vaseline-contaminated clay it will behave more
like a
cohesionless material than any clay body you're probably use to
working.
Vaseline will affect the wet and dry strength of your clay body as
well as
its plasticity and cation exchange capacity. If you really want to
save this
clay and can work around the concrete residue, fire the used clay to
around
215 degrees C (419 degrees F) in an oxidation atmosphere (reduction
might
leave undesirable soot in your clay body). Alkanes react with oxygen
in
combustion reactions to form carbon dioxide and water. Stay under 400
degrees C (752 degrees F) or you'll begin to calcine the kaolin
portion of
your clay. Depending on the volume of clay and Vaseline this process
for
Vaseline removal shouldn't take too long. Afterwards you can reclaim
the
lightly fired clay by standard methods.>>
However, given that Vaseline is Hydrophobic and the particles between
clay fragments are filled with water, I would like to know what causes
emulsification of the oils and waxes with the water of plasticity in
the clay, which is being used to form the mould.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
<"We are getting ready to have a workshop with an artist who wants to
use
clay to make a mold into which to pour concrete. He would cover the
clay
with vaseline. Can I recycle the clay with vaseline or does the
vaseline
ruin the clay which is used?">>
Neon-Cat on sat 20 sep 08
Ivor wrote: "I would like to know what causes emulsification of the oils and
waxes with the water of plasticity in the clay, which is being used to form
the mould."
Oh Ivor, my chem-buddy, I'm not sure the Vaseline and water do form an
emulsion in this given example (an emulsion being a suspension of small
globules of one liquid in a second liquid with which the first will not
mix). Emulsion, as a concept, did not turn up in my thinking or refresher
review of the literature. You might think "displacement". I've got a social
engagement with fellow artists and clay-people to the Fort Worth Jazz-Art
to-do today. Ceramics are supposed to be represented. Outdoor, lively fun is
where my mind is at and our weather is perfect. The 'how-to-recycle
Vaseline-coated clay' is solved.
What type of explanation were you looking for? Bonding? Adsorption or
sorption mechanisms? What? I might let you trip through the science of all
this yourself in your spare time. Lots has been written about oil and clay
in the field of oil recovery. Soil scientists offer many good scientific
explanations for unfired clay reactions with oils and other things. Two
places for you to start.
Have fun!
Marian
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 21 sep 08
Dear Marian,
It seemed to me that the information you gave was difficult to
comprehend and I had difficulty believing that Vaseline, in my
experience a material that is stiff and not free flowing, could
displace water from freshly moulded clay .
Perhaps you should review your comment in Clayart #2008. 118.
Hope you enjoyed your festival. I enjoyed throwing a few more mugs.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Neon-Cat on sun 21 sep 08
The festival was great, Ivor. Ceramics were represented quite well in
half-a-dozen vendor booths considering the small number of booths overall.
Sales, per vendors, were not great, unfortunate for them. Prices were
reasonable. The gate (visitors) seemed to buy mostly wine and beer. Nice
outing overall and food for thought in many respects.
Ivor, I just answered a question on reclaiming clay. It was not my intention
to explain sorption processes to you or to the list. It's an incredibly
difficult subject that leaves even experts at a loss sometimes. The type of
clay makes a difference when it comes to oil adsorption. What type of clay
body, composed of exactly what, was to be used at the workshop? Don't know.
Don't care. But in general, yes, clay adsorbs oil. Clay adsorbs many things
and an understanding of adsorption is integral to what we do. The mechanisms
of adsorption are numerous, many still unknown, so the term "sorption" is
used when we do not know exactly how things "stick". How you jumped to
thinking about emulsions I'm still not clear but that's not a good avenue to
travel down looking for an answer regarding our current example (oils and
clay). You're intelligent - I gave you some hints that might help you better
understand oil-clay interactions should you wish to dig deeper. Obviously
you did not or have not yet. Goofy personal aspect aside, before I post I am
very careful, saying exactly that which I wish to convey, always first
checking facts to see if they are in line with current and accepted
scientific thought.
I need to focus on clay - my personal learning program. I am happy that clay
adsorbs oil spills, that oil can be used as a release agent, an aid during
burnishing, etc. That's enough for me now. Would I like to be able to
explain what I "see" and know in casual list email posts - yes. That time
has not come and may never come given all our varied backgrounds and limited
time. I do advocate self-study. Ceramics is a vast field so there's plenty
to interest each one of us and an abundance of resources in specialized
fields. If oil and clay interests you now - go for it. I'd rather spend my
limited study time right now looking at the reactivity of oxides as their
use and application might benefit whatever forms I am able to create in my
own clay art program or spend my time enjoying artists' work new to me -
like the Terracotta Woman Project by Marian Heyerdahl that May Luk just
shared (rockin'! - thanks, May!). As someone who just past a year working
with clay I have much I need to learn and do that will enable me to be
successful as a future artist. Thus for me, the science behind what we do is
a hobby, most times a very pleasant head-trip given my previous chemistry
background. If I can sometimes answer a question or stir thought into new
channels, great. If not, everyone is familiar with the delete key. Neither
you nor I nor anyone is likely to exhaust the science behind clay. We may
all grow in what we learn and know and share but we are never going to
master it all. And I like that. In this field of wet, dry, and fired clay
I'll never be bored.
Why is it with you I feel this tug to quarrelsomeness? Life is too short and
weird enough sometimes. And believe me, I ask far more questions of myself
regarding clay than I will ever answer or have answered. Sometimes I just
want to share a hint of something of interest and have a little fun. This
niggly stuff from you just isn't much fun and often only stifles productive
dialogue. I'll put up the preservative stuff in the days to come that some
will find useful and take a list break.
Stiff Vaseline? Curious...
Marian
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On Behalf Of Ivor and Olive
Lewis
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 1:23 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Vaseline and Clay
Dear Marian,
It seemed to me that the information you gave was difficult to
comprehend and I had difficulty believing that Vaseline, in my
experience a material that is stiff and not free flowing, could
displace water from freshly moulded clay .
Perhaps you should review your comment in Clayart #2008. 118.
Hope you enjoyed your festival. I enjoyed throwing a few more mugs.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 24 sep 08
Hi Marian, Ivor, all...
Far as I am familiar...
'Vaseline's as with pretty well any Oil or Grease or Fats...will be a
blend of some
range of Specific Gravities, of the constituent substances.
The lighter portions can be imagines to 'pull' the heavier portions behind
them, in enjoying their 'Wicking' or Creeping tendencies on or into other
materials...the lightest components of all, will evaporate over however long
a time, if allowed to.
Even heavy Oils will wick through Gaskets or whatever sort of very minute
fissures over time, as can be
seen in viewing old Machinery or Power Tools which have sat or not been
superficially cleaned in many years.
What is happening in Chemical negotiations, or in sub-visual scenarios, I
have no idea.
But, I do know, any Oil or Grease will flow out, 'wick' or otherwise creep
into and over whatever surfaces it is touching...to one extent or other.
Time, and elevated Temperature will of course influence or encourage the
extent of this...Oxidations will slow it.
Given that Water is generally Heavier than Oils or Greases or Fats, possibly
their
antipathy is resolved in saturation scenarios by Specific Gravity when
Mechanical conditions permit,
rather than
by soponifications...unless considerable agitation or Chemical mediacy is
brought to bear.
Though I do think that Soponification will often occur in the meeting of
very thin boundaries of Oil, Grease or Fat under passive conditions...which
then could occur 'in' wet or damp Clay.
What any given amount of Oil Grease or Fat will do to or do in any given
Clay, and with respect to how much Water the specific Clay has in it, as
well as when dry...probably would be interesting to find out by simple
experiment, as far as those changes as can be observed with or without aid
of Laboratory apparatus.
Anyway...just those couple o' thoughts...
Love,
Phil
l v
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon-Cat"
> The festival was great, Ivor. Ceramics were represented quite well in
> half-a-dozen vendor booths considering the small number of booths overall.
> Sales, per vendors, were not great, unfortunate for them. Prices were
> reasonable. The gate (visitors) seemed to buy mostly wine and beer. Nice
> outing overall and food for thought in many respects.
>
> Ivor, I just answered a question on reclaiming clay. It was not my
> intention
> to explain sorption processes to you or to the list. It's an incredibly
> difficult subject that leaves even experts at a loss sometimes. The type
> of
> clay makes a difference when it comes to oil adsorption. What type of clay
> body, composed of exactly what, was to be used at the workshop? Don't
> know.
> Don't care. But in general, yes, clay adsorbs oil. Clay adsorbs many
> things
> and an understanding of adsorption is integral to what we do. The
> mechanisms
> of adsorption are numerous, many still unknown, so the term "sorption" is
> used when we do not know exactly how things "stick". How you jumped to
> thinking about emulsions I'm still not clear but that's not a good avenue
> to
> travel down looking for an answer regarding our current example (oils and
> clay). You're intelligent - I gave you some hints that might help you
> better
> understand oil-clay interactions should you wish to dig deeper. Obviously
> you did not or have not yet. Goofy personal aspect aside, before I post I
> am
> very careful, saying exactly that which I wish to convey, always first
> checking facts to see if they are in line with current and accepted
> scientific thought.
>
> I need to focus on clay - my personal learning program. I am happy that
> clay
> adsorbs oil spills, that oil can be used as a release agent, an aid during
> burnishing, etc. That's enough for me now. Would I like to be able to
> explain what I "see" and know in casual list email posts - yes. That time
> has not come and may never come given all our varied backgrounds and
> limited
> time. I do advocate self-study. Ceramics is a vast field so there's plenty
> to interest each one of us and an abundance of resources in specialized
> fields. If oil and clay interests you now - go for it. I'd rather spend my
> limited study time right now looking at the reactivity of oxides as their
> use and application might benefit whatever forms I am able to create in my
> own clay art program or spend my time enjoying artists' work new to me -
> like the Terracotta Woman Project by Marian Heyerdahl that May Luk just
> shared (rockin'! - thanks, May!). As someone who just past a year working
> with clay I have much I need to learn and do that will enable me to be
> successful as a future artist. Thus for me, the science behind what we do
> is
> a hobby, most times a very pleasant head-trip given my previous chemistry
> background. If I can sometimes answer a question or stir thought into new
> channels, great. If not, everyone is familiar with the delete key. Neither
> you nor I nor anyone is likely to exhaust the science behind clay. We may
> all grow in what we learn and know and share but we are never going to
> master it all. And I like that. In this field of wet, dry, and fired clay
> I'll never be bored.
>
> Why is it with you I feel this tug to quarrelsomeness? Life is too short
> and
> weird enough sometimes. And believe me, I ask far more questions of myself
> regarding clay than I will ever answer or have answered. Sometimes I just
> want to share a hint of something of interest and have a little fun. This
> niggly stuff from you just isn't much fun and often only stifles
> productive
> dialogue. I'll put up the preservative stuff in the days to come that some
> will find useful and take a list break.
>
> Stiff Vaseline? Curious...
>
> Marian
Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 26 sep 08
Dear Phil,
A simple demonstration you and others can set up for yourselves is to
run about 20 mls of water into a clear glass bottle then follow this
up with about the same volume of Olive or other vegetable oil. The oil
will float upwards and rest on the surface of the water. Shake
vigorously and the mixture will repeat this operation. Now add a grain
or so of caustic soda or a half teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda and
again shake thoroughly.
The effect you observe should be the creation of an opaque white fluid
which takes a long time to separate out again into two distinct
layers.
I am sure your suppositions relating to Petrolatum Jelly and dry clay
are correct. But if the clay is wet, an not so sure.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
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