Sherron & Jim Bowen on thu 11 sep 08
I believe in education for education's sake. My daughter got a degree in
equine science. If that's the subject that motivated her enough to get that
degree I was cool with that. She has Ben in computer tech support ever since
she graduated.
Jim
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bonnie Hellman"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:54 PM
Subject: Tony, teaching philosophy and balance
> Kelly has posed the question of whether it is ethical to encourage
> students
> to major in a subject which will likely leave them financially adrift.
>
> IMHO most liberal arts college majors will likely leave them financially
> adrift, if the student tries to earn a living in that field. The number of
> historians, sociologists, French literature majors or literature majors of
> any language, etc. that are required by our society is very small.
>
> Yes, teachers of these fields are employable, and some positions prefer
> certain majors, but our colleges graduate far more students than will ever
> work "in their fields." Many students who go on to receive Masters Degrees
> in these fields may also find themselves financially adrift.
>
> A lot of these graduates will work in related fields or perhaps as
> teachers,
> and some will work in positions that require a college degree but don't
> seem
> to use it. (Perhaps they consider the degree as indication that the
> student
> knows or knew how to learn. )
>
> There are relatively few college majors where someone could reasonably
> expect to earn a living by working in that field, using the knowledge
> acquired in college. Even then, the college degree/s form a foundation on
> which to learn what is needed on the job. This was certainly true of my
> accounting courses. I was not aware of any opportunities to use my
> undergraduate degree in art history.
>
> OTOH my undergraduate courses in art (black and white design, print
> making,
> painting, and ceramics, a total of 7 courses all together) formed the
> basis
> for a lifelong enjoyment of studio art. The design course was required as
> part of my art history degree. I took the other courses because I enjoyed
> them. Had I majored in studio art, then taken the accounting courses, I'd
> still be where I am today. (Or at least I think I'd be here. )
>
> Bonnie
>
> Bonnie D. Hellman, CPA
> Ouray, Colorado 81427
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kelly Savino"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:53 PM
> Subject: Tony, teaching philosophy and balance
>
>
>> Tony, some of the issues you're juggling used to come up at the Side
>> Track Tavern when Patrick and I were drinking Woodchucks.
>>
>> Is it ethical to encourage students to major in a subject which will
>> likely leave them financially adrift?
>>
>> Let's say we go to grad school because the potter's living means hard
>> work, no bennies, no landing strip and no fallback for aging joints or
>> crappy economy... even though we know full well that MFAs are numerous
>> and jobs are few. How, then, do we justify creating still more MFA
>> students? (especially if they are starry-eyed with illusions?)
>>
>> We can shrug and say, "Hey, it's not my problem what people choose to
>> do". That seems to work for selling alcohol and running casinos, too. We
>> can't help it if some people don't make responsible choices (but we make
>> our money by counting on them.) That hardly feels comfortable, either.
>>
>> So. Do we meet all art/ceramic grad students at the door and say,
>> "You're wasting your time and money, don't do this, you'll never get a
>> job"?
>
> [cut]
>
>> People want to study clay because they fall in love. Something in us
>> recognizes the right fit, the thing lacking from our diet, the missing
>> puzzle pieces. Tony, even if you WERE the daddy of all those students,
>> you wouldn't pick their spouses for them, would you? Based on a resume,
>> statistics, logic? You let them love who they love. Same goes for clay.
>>
>> Yours
>> Kelly in Ohio
>>
>>
>> p.s. another nice thing about a couple of years in a university ceramics
>> studio... is that some find out (before it's too late) that it's not
>> where they want to end up. I have met a lot of education majors who
>> discovered later that they weren't cut out for teaching, and hated every
>> minute of it. That can happen when you get your logic ahead of your
>> heart.
>>
>> http://www.primalpotter.com
>
Tony Ferguson on thu 11 sep 08
It has nothing to do with ethics unless you are lying about what you think you know to your students.
It is a fact that the majority of disciplines in the college and university system in which we are preparing students for "jobs" will not exist in 10 years or less. See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljbI-363A2Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7J_ereCiTo&feature=related
It is a matter of being honest with your students about what you are passionate about and that they have to find what they are passionate about and the current reality of jobs in Art.
Tell them its competitive out there and its tough to survive on your art work and that there are many job possibilities for people who think outside the box because you have researched all the other jobs and careers a creative problem solvers can do.
It is said the new MBA is the MFA. Creative people are and becoming more in demand. I suggest anyone read that Daniel Pink book--especially young people trying to figure what they want to do--especially those interested in Art. You can probably find some MPR potcasts to about what Pink says about creative people and globalization.
Tony Ferguson
Bonnie Hellman wrote: Kelly has posed the question of whether it is ethical to encourage students
to major in a subject which will likely leave them financially adrift.
IMHO most liberal arts college majors will likely leave them financially
adrift, if the student tries to earn a living in that field. The number of
historians, sociologists, French literature majors or literature majors of
any language, etc. that are required by our society is very small.
Yes, teachers of these fields are employable, and some positions prefer
certain majors, but our colleges graduate far more students than will ever
work "in their fields." Many students who go on to receive Masters Degrees
in these fields may also find themselves financially adrift.
A lot of these graduates will work in related fields or perhaps as teachers,
and some will work in positions that require a college degree but don't seem
to use it. (Perhaps they consider the degree as indication that the student
knows or knew how to learn. )
There are relatively few college majors where someone could reasonably
expect to earn a living by working in that field, using the knowledge
acquired in college. Even then, the college degree/s form a foundation on
which to learn what is needed on the job. This was certainly true of my
accounting courses. I was not aware of any opportunities to use my
undergraduate degree in art history.
OTOH my undergraduate courses in art (black and white design, print making,
painting, and ceramics, a total of 7 courses all together) formed the basis
for a lifelong enjoyment of studio art. The design course was required as
part of my art history degree. I took the other courses because I enjoyed
them. Had I majored in studio art, then taken the accounting courses, I'd
still be where I am today. (Or at least I think I'd be here. )
Bonnie
Bonnie D. Hellman, CPA
Ouray, Colorado 81427
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly Savino"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:53 PM
Subject: Tony, teaching philosophy and balance
> Tony, some of the issues you're juggling used to come up at the Side
> Track Tavern when Patrick and I were drinking Woodchucks.
>
> Is it ethical to encourage students to major in a subject which will
> likely leave them financially adrift?
>
> Let's say we go to grad school because the potter's living means hard
> work, no bennies, no landing strip and no fallback for aging joints or
> crappy economy... even though we know full well that MFAs are numerous
> and jobs are few. How, then, do we justify creating still more MFA
> students? (especially if they are starry-eyed with illusions?)
>
> We can shrug and say, "Hey, it's not my problem what people choose to
> do". That seems to work for selling alcohol and running casinos, too. We
> can't help it if some people don't make responsible choices (but we make
> our money by counting on them.) That hardly feels comfortable, either.
>
> So. Do we meet all art/ceramic grad students at the door and say,
> "You're wasting your time and money, don't do this, you'll never get a
> job"?
[cut]
> People want to study clay because they fall in love. Something in us
> recognizes the right fit, the thing lacking from our diet, the missing
> puzzle pieces. Tony, even if you WERE the daddy of all those students,
> you wouldn't pick their spouses for them, would you? Based on a resume,
> statistics, logic? You let them love who they love. Same goes for clay.
>
> Yours
> Kelly in Ohio
>
>
> p.s. another nice thing about a couple of years in a university ceramics
> studio... is that some find out (before it's too late) that it's not
> where they want to end up. I have met a lot of education majors who
> discovered later that they weren't cut out for teaching, and hated every
> minute of it. That can happen when you get your logic ahead of your
> heart.
>
> http://www.primalpotter.com
Take Care,
Tony Ferguson
...where the sky meets the lake...
http://www.tonyferguson.net
Kelly Savino on thu 11 sep 08
Tony, some of the issues you're juggling used to come up at the Side
Track Tavern when Patrick and I were drinking Woodchucks.
Is it ethical to encourage students to major in a subject which will
likely leave them financially adrift?
Let's say we go to grad school because the potter's living means hard
work, no bennies, no landing strip and no fallback for aging joints or
crappy economy... even though we know full well that MFAs are numerous
and jobs are few. How, then, do we justify creating still more MFA
students? (especially if they are starry-eyed with illusions?)
We can shrug and say, "Hey, it's not my problem what people choose to
do". That seems to work for selling alcohol and running casinos, too. We
can't help it if some people don't make responsible choices (but we make
our money by counting on them.) That hardly feels comfortable, either.
So. Do we meet all art/ceramic grad students at the door and say,
"You're wasting your time and money, don't do this, you'll never get a
job"?
That wouldn't be fair to the rising stars who were going to combine your
teaching and their own fire, and go make things happen, leave us all in
the dust, prove the statistics wrong.
And, it's presumptuous to assume that we know what's best for anyone.
What does any liberal arts grad do with a degree in lit, renaissance
music,sociology? You skip the suit and tie and the job fair, go out and
make your own door. Or you study it to the end of the degree road and
then teach it to others -- keeping the non-lucrative,
"relevance-endangered" parts of our culture alive, like the monks did in
the dark ages.
Stools can have more legs than your three. My brothers "legs" are
musician -- film maker -- financial advisor. One pays the bills. The
other two are "if-come," but feed the soul. Equally important.
I made buckets of money with a Masters in Folklore. I was good at
ferreting out grant funded jobs, would go wherever I was needed, and had
a ball doing it.
If we were only looking at the bottom line and financial stability, we'd
advise people never to become parents, either. Kids are expensive and a
risky proposition. Stay-at-home motherhood is a terrible idea,
financially -- (and forget homeschooling.) Art other than
commercial/graphic would be out of the question, and with it would go
the studies of history, anthropology, music, theater, and more.
Ann's right, lives need balance. My dad says "You are what you think
about all day long" -- so if your brain is always on serious matters,
practicality, finances and the bottom line, your work will be equally
dull and joyless. Poets may make beauty out of pain and suffering, but
the pots of a bored potter rarely sing.
When I spent the two years of my MFA being Jack the Dull Boy, the
pressure was on to be fresh and creative --right at the point where the
well ran dry. That well was filled by a hidden spring I had not
acknowledged: days baking peach pies, afternoons at the park, painting
with my kids (first on paper, then on each other).. Fat garden eggplants
and bright snapdragons, bright wet treasures only discovered by floating
over lily-pads in an inner tube. Reading Harry Potter and Redwall and
Lord of the Rings. Playing with batik, and fused glass, and a shuttle
loom. All the stuff that wakes up my brain and trains my eye, my hand,
my imagination, translates itself into the clay studio... but for two
years it was schedule, priority, no time to waste and miles of grey
highway. I made some nice work and learned a ton, but I was fresh out of
joy by the time I was done -- weary to the bone.
I am just now reconnecting with friends who considered me lost...
finding myself at galleries and gatherings, 20+ pounds lighter and
wearing something without clay on it, with a sense of humor again...
really hearing the people who talk to me, really seeing what's before my
eyes. Immersion in grad school was kind of like the newborn-baby
experience.. I had just dropped (quite willingly) out of the world for a
while, so immersed in the joys/challenges/tasks at hand that there was
nothing left over. And I had a similar bout of "post partum" blues,
afterward, and a similar "reawakening" with the same burst of energy.
You have to feed your marriage, and you have to feed your own joy.
Otherwise it doesn't matter what's in the freakin' checkbook.
Practicality is lovely, but it has no soul. Why build an arch out of
bricks to fire pots some archaic way? Why make them at all, when there
are perfectly serviceable mugs for nothing at WalMart? Why not just get
used to styro? It's all very logical.
People want to study clay because they fall in love. Something in us
recognizes the right fit, the thing lacking from our diet, the missing
puzzle pieces. Tony, even if you WERE the daddy of all those students,
you wouldn't pick their spouses for them, would you? Based on a resume,
statistics, logic? You let them love who they love. Same goes for clay.
Yours
Kelly in Ohio
p.s. another nice thing about a couple of years in a university ceramics
studio... is that some find out (before it's too late) that it's not
where they want to end up. I have met a lot of education majors who
discovered later that they weren't cut out for teaching, and hated every
minute of it. That can happen when you get your logic ahead of your
heart.
http://www.primalpotter.com
John Post on thu 11 sep 08
When you're a teacher, what you really give students is a part of
yourself. Teaching is a relationship. Whatever you're excited about
will come through in the classroom. We teach from our experiences.
Curriculum and philosophies sit in books, but what your students take
away from your classes comes from the interactions they have with you
as the teacher.
If there was just one great way to teach someone something, surely it
would have been written down in a book for all teachers to follow.
But all teachers are different, are passionate about different things
and teachers can even change over time. I view my teaching as shining
a spotlight on certain ideas. Even when the spotlight is lighting up
some important ideas, others get left in the shadows. You can't shine
the light everywhere at once. Every year I shift the spotlight to
illuminate something new. If I didn't, this job would get old fast.
Last year in my K-6 classes I concentrated on teaching my kids about
some of the most famous artists and most famous images by those
artists. I called it "Mr. Post's Top 10 Famous Artists".
Lee gave me a suggestion in the spring about adding some multicultural
artists to my list and so this year my spotlight is on art from around
the world. We are starting in Africa. This week all of my students
are making "wild dog" paintings after learning about the Egyptian
deity Anubis. The kids aren't making art that resembles Anubis, we
are instead making paintings in intense colors of wild dogs in a
contemporary style. The kids loved hearing the story and history of
Anubis as well as learning about the domestication of dogs and other
animals throughout history around the globe.
That's where the spotlight is shining this year. Last year's ideas
have gone back to the shadows. The kids are getting the best of who I
am today. They think I have an entire year planned out in advance for
them as if it comes from some book. So far I have about the next 3 or
4 paintings and sculptures from Africa planned out and then after that
we are moving onto India or Asia. I am more like a meandering stream
than a straight line.
The best part of today was when I told the kids we're going to take a
look at art and artists from Africa, this little African-American
second grader did a big fist pump in the air. The same kind of thing
happened last year when a young muslim student listened to my talk
about mosques and majolica. I asked him if I explained everything
right about the mosques and he said that I did, and even added a few
details and stories about the mosque he goes to.
Anyway Tony, give em' what ya got.... you really can't do otherwise.
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan
:: cone 6 glaze website :: http://www.johnpost.us
:: elementary art website :: http://www.wemakeart.org
Bonnie Hellman on thu 11 sep 08
Kelly has posed the question of whether it is ethical to encourage students
to major in a subject which will likely leave them financially adrift.
IMHO most liberal arts college majors will likely leave them financially
adrift, if the student tries to earn a living in that field. The number of
historians, sociologists, French literature majors or literature majors of
any language, etc. that are required by our society is very small.
Yes, teachers of these fields are employable, and some positions prefer
certain majors, but our colleges graduate far more students than will ever
work "in their fields." Many students who go on to receive Masters Degrees
in these fields may also find themselves financially adrift.
A lot of these graduates will work in related fields or perhaps as teachers,
and some will work in positions that require a college degree but don't seem
to use it. (Perhaps they consider the degree as indication that the student
knows or knew how to learn. )
There are relatively few college majors where someone could reasonably
expect to earn a living by working in that field, using the knowledge
acquired in college. Even then, the college degree/s form a foundation on
which to learn what is needed on the job. This was certainly true of my
accounting courses. I was not aware of any opportunities to use my
undergraduate degree in art history.
OTOH my undergraduate courses in art (black and white design, print making,
painting, and ceramics, a total of 7 courses all together) formed the basis
for a lifelong enjoyment of studio art. The design course was required as
part of my art history degree. I took the other courses because I enjoyed
them. Had I majored in studio art, then taken the accounting courses, I'd
still be where I am today. (Or at least I think I'd be here. )
Bonnie
Bonnie D. Hellman, CPA
Ouray, Colorado 81427
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly Savino"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:53 PM
Subject: Tony, teaching philosophy and balance
> Tony, some of the issues you're juggling used to come up at the Side
> Track Tavern when Patrick and I were drinking Woodchucks.
>
> Is it ethical to encourage students to major in a subject which will
> likely leave them financially adrift?
>
> Let's say we go to grad school because the potter's living means hard
> work, no bennies, no landing strip and no fallback for aging joints or
> crappy economy... even though we know full well that MFAs are numerous
> and jobs are few. How, then, do we justify creating still more MFA
> students? (especially if they are starry-eyed with illusions?)
>
> We can shrug and say, "Hey, it's not my problem what people choose to
> do". That seems to work for selling alcohol and running casinos, too. We
> can't help it if some people don't make responsible choices (but we make
> our money by counting on them.) That hardly feels comfortable, either.
>
> So. Do we meet all art/ceramic grad students at the door and say,
> "You're wasting your time and money, don't do this, you'll never get a
> job"?
[cut]
> People want to study clay because they fall in love. Something in us
> recognizes the right fit, the thing lacking from our diet, the missing
> puzzle pieces. Tony, even if you WERE the daddy of all those students,
> you wouldn't pick their spouses for them, would you? Based on a resume,
> statistics, logic? You let them love who they love. Same goes for clay.
>
> Yours
> Kelly in Ohio
>
>
> p.s. another nice thing about a couple of years in a university ceramics
> studio... is that some find out (before it's too late) that it's not
> where they want to end up. I have met a lot of education majors who
> discovered later that they weren't cut out for teaching, and hated every
> minute of it. That can happen when you get your logic ahead of your
> heart.
>
> http://www.primalpotter.com
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