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## kiln firing costs, nyc

### Lois Ruben Aronow on wed 16 apr 08

I'm paying 38 cents a kw hour in Brooklyn. this is regardless of time of
day or commercial demand.

>
> looks like he is charging you 37.6 cents/KWH. that is a
> little high. we pay about 9 or 10 cents here in alabama,
> IIRC. Even for NYC 37.6 cents seems exhorbitant. find out
> what the true KWH charge is from the electric co, and then
>

### Ron Wright on wed 16 apr 08

The kiln is not on continuously. The elements will turn on and off. A 12
hour firing in Chicago costs about \$5.00.

Ron Wright
3 Dogs Pottery
(Waiting for my house to sell so that I can retire. Talk about bad timing!)

Alyssa Ettinger wrote:
> this is what he gave me as a bill:
> 9.98kwh x 12hr x 0.376 = 45.03
>
> did we go wrong somewhere? what am i missing?
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>
>

### Alyssa Ettinger on wed 16 apr 08

just got my first electric bill from my new landlord, he calculated it from
a formula i gave him ... \$45 for 12 hours of firing. have we computed this
wrong, because it seems awfully high.

here's how we did it:

this is my kiln:

208 Volts 48 Amps 9980 Watts
one phase
Copper Wire Size: 6
Breaker Size: 60
NEMA Receptacle Configuration: 6-50

this is what i gave to my landlord, in regard to calculations:
"we multiply how many kilowatts it takes to fire a kiln x cost of each
kilowatt hour.

my kiln is 9980 Watts. divide this by 1000 to find out how many kilowatts
that is: 9.98 kilowatts. ergo, 9.98(x) x 12 firing hours (y) = (\$Y)

this is what he gave me as a bill:
9.98kwh x 12hr x 0.376 = 45.03

did we go wrong somewhere? what am i missing?

### Lynn Goodman Porcelain Pottery on wed 16 apr 08

On Apr 16, 2008, at 9:24 AM, Alyssa Ettinger wrote:

> just got my first electric bill from my new landlord, he calculated
> it from
> a formula i gave him ... \$45 for 12 hours of firing. have we
> computed this
> wrong, because it seems awfully high.

Alyssa,

If that is a 7 cubic foot kiln, that sounds right to me. That's about
what I pay for a ^6.

Lynn

### Lois Ruben Aronow on wed 16 apr 08

Welcome to the wonderful world of firing in Brooklyn, NYC.

This figure sounds almost right for ^6, but I think your calculation is very
wrong. You have to go by how many kwh you use per month. I doubt you are
using 9980 kwh a month. I usually use about 800, and that is with studio
mates in a large space. You times your kw's used by your cost per kw -
average is about .35 or more in a commercial building.

say, 1000, and your reading at the end of the month is 1500, you have used
500 kw that month. 500 x whatever your rate is (let's say .35, to make it
(you'll need instruction on how to do this - trust me) or get the beginning
and end readings from you landlord to insure accuracy.

Unless your kiln is on a separate line, you are using more electricity than
just firing. Lights and leaving the kiln plugged in uses plenty. We turn
the kiln off at the breaker in my studio when it's not in use - makes a
gigantic difference. Plug in a fridge, computer and slip mixer or wheel -
Ka-ching! I am assuming you are in a commercial building. The rates are
twice as high as residential electric, and then there is demand.

Hope this helps. I know it's confusing at first. I now read all the dial
meters in my large commercial building, as it confuses the hell out of the
landlord.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of
> Alyssa Ettinger
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:25 AM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: kiln firing costs, nyc
>
> just got my first electric bill from my new landlord, he
> calculated it from a formula i gave him ... \$45 for 12 hours
> of firing. have we computed this wrong, because it seems awfully high.
>
> here's how we did it:
>
>
> this is my kiln:
>
> 208 Volts 48 Amps 9980 Watts
> one phase
> Copper Wire Size: 6
> Breaker Size: 60
> NEMA Receptacle Configuration: 6-50
>
>
> this is what i gave to my landlord, in regard to calculations:
> "we multiply how many kilowatts it takes to fire a kiln x
> cost of each kilowatt hour.
>
> my kiln is 9980 Watts. divide this by 1000 to find out how
> many kilowatts that is: 9.98 kilowatts. ergo, 9.98(x) x 12
> firing hours (y) = (\$Y)
>
>
> this is what he gave me as a bill:
> 9.98kwh x 12hr x 0.376 = 45.03
>
> did we go wrong somewhere? what am i missing?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> ________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages,
> change your subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the
> list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com

### Steve Slatin on wed 16 apr 08

Alyssa -- Couple of thoughts --

First, I have no idea what electricity costs per
KWhour in New York today. (I do know that when
electrical costs were deregulated "to permit
consumer savings" in New York the price
for residential power was about 18 cents per
KWh, but that was way back in 1998.) A
quick call to ConEd will tell you what the
Con is charging.

Second, I have no idea how your kiln
works, or if you actually run it on high for
12 full hours for a firing. But your calculation
presumes that it is on high for the entire
time, in an 'all switches on' state.

Third, the calculation 'eyeballs' right to
me (unless I'm missing something!).

But if you have your kiln on low for 3
hours to candle, and then medium for
5 hours to raise heat steadily, then
high for 4 hours to get to temp, you'll
use far less energy than if you go
immediately to high for the full 12 hours.

If your kiln is computer controlled,
it's off as much as it's on in a typical
firing.

I can think of several possible solutions --
I don't know how easy any of them
would be for you --

1 - Get a used meter (they're pretty
cheap, electrical contractors and supply
houses often have several on hand) and
get it installed. Measure your KWh
use and pay just for that. Downside --
you need to get a licensed electrician
to break into your line and wire in the
meter, and probably landlord permission
to install the meter.

2 - If you are in a building with only a
few tenants, pick a time for a firing when
other use will be minimal, and check the
meter at the beginning and end of a firing --
measure actual use -- and establish
that as a maximum cost per firing.
(To improve this, get together with the
landlord if he's willing, same time of day,
etc., read the meter, do nothing, 12 hours
later read it with him again -- then the
next day do the same thing while firing;
this should get you very close to
actual KWh consumption for a firing.)

3 - There is a piece of equipment that
clamps onto a power line, measures the
current (by induction) and records the
results. I haven't seen one in many
years, but I believe Fluke makes one
(funny name, but they make great
meters). If you can borrow/rent
one, you can get a chart of energy
used. Make sure you're getting
one that CHARTS and not just
records minimum and maximum.
You need to identify actual usage,
and this allows you to do so without
needing an electrical contractor to
break into the line to install a meter.

4 - If you end up with a standard electrical
meter, remember to read them that half
of the dials go 'backwards' compared to
the others.

Beyond that, lady -- I got nothing.
But good wishes, and you know you
have that -- Steve Slatin

Alyssa Ettinger wrote:
just got my first electric bill from my new landlord, he calculated it from
a formula i gave him ... \$45 for 12 hours of firing. have we computed this
wrong, because it seems awfully high.

here's how we did it:

this is my kiln:

208 Volts 48 Amps 9980 Watts
one phase
Copper Wire Size: 6
Breaker Size: 60
NEMA Receptacle Configuration: 6-50

this is what i gave to my landlord, in regard to calculations:
"we multiply how many kilowatts it takes to fire a kiln x cost of each
kilowatt hour.

my kiln is 9980 Watts. divide this by 1000 to find out how many kilowatts
that is: 9.98 kilowatts. ergo, 9.98(x) x 12 firing hours (y) = (\$Y)

this is what he gave me as a bill:
9.98kwh x 12hr x 0.376 = 45.03

did we go wrong somewhere? what am i missing?

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

### Larry Kruzan on wed 16 apr 08

Hi Alyssa,

That would be the cost IF you were firing the kiln at its maximum current
draw for the entire firing - not correct - remember your kiln turns on, then
off - it draws no amps when in the off cycle. The max rating is only
approached at the end of the firing. It really never reaches what you were
billed for.

The best is to read the meter at the start of a firing and leave everything
else in the studio off until it is finished, reread the meter and subtract.
If this is not possible you might explain how a kiln works (intermittently
not constant duty) and reach a compromise - my guess would be 50% duty
cycle, but I have no real data for that, it may be less.

Perhaps Howard could address this for all of us.

Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Alyssa Ettinger
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:25 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: [CLAYART] kiln firing costs, nyc

just got my first electric bill from my new landlord, he calculated it from
a formula i gave him ... \$45 for 12 hours of firing. have we computed this
wrong, because it seems awfully high.

here's how we did it:

this is my kiln:

208 Volts 48 Amps 9980 Watts
one phase
Copper Wire Size: 6
Breaker Size: 60
NEMA Receptacle Configuration: 6-50

this is what i gave to my landlord, in regard to calculations:
"we multiply how many kilowatts it takes to fire a kiln x cost of each
kilowatt hour.

my kiln is 9980 Watts. divide this by 1000 to find out how many kilowatts
that is: 9.98 kilowatts. ergo, 9.98(x) x 12 firing hours (y) = (\$Y)

this is what he gave me as a bill:
9.98kwh x 12hr x 0.376 = 45.03

did we go wrong somewhere? what am i missing?

____________________________________________________________________________
__
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots2@visi.com

### John Rodgers on wed 16 apr 08

Alyssa,

That sounds way out of whack. If you really want to know the score on
this, the electric company can come out an put a meter on your kiln
cable and monitor it for a full firing. That way you will know the true
power consumption of your kiln. I have done this twice and there was
never a charge for the service. It was good to know the true consumption
so the true cost could be calculated. Actually, the power company did
the calcs for me. It was costing \$8.43 for a high firing that lasted
right at 12 hours. Even though this was ten years ago, and electric
costs have gone up, that haven't gone up that much. I suspect that a
full load high fire to cone 6 would cost \$12-\$15 today. Talk to your
electric power company.

Regards,

John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL

Alyssa Ettinger wrote:
> just got my first electric bill from my new landlord, he calculated it from
> a formula i gave him ... \$45 for 12 hours of firing. have we computed this
> wrong, because it seems awfully high.
>
> here's how we did it:
>
>
> this is my kiln:
>
> 208 Volts 48 Amps 9980 Watts
> one phase
> Copper Wire Size: 6
> Breaker Size: 60
> NEMA Receptacle Configuration: 6-50
>
>
> this is what i gave to my landlord, in regard to calculations:
> "we multiply how many kilowatts it takes to fire a kiln x cost of each
> kilowatt hour.
>
> my kiln is 9980 Watts. divide this by 1000 to find out how many kilowatts
> that is: 9.98 kilowatts. ergo, 9.98(x) x 12 firing hours (y) = (\$Y)
>
>
> this is what he gave me as a bill:
> 9.98kwh x 12hr x 0.376 = 45.03
>
> did we go wrong somewhere? what am i missing?
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
>
>
>

### Neal O'Briant on wed 16 apr 08

I think it's high because the kiln will not
be going full blast all the time. Someone
with more knowledge of electrical things
can probably explain it better.

I've calculated my firing cost to under \$10
per glaze firing. I did it by reading the
meter before starting and then taking a
reading after finishing and then subtracting
the average daily usage from the total.

Neal O'Briant

### Michael Wendt on wed 16 apr 08

Alyssa,
Your figures only make sense if the kiln
is on high for 12 hours.
Actual usage is much lower except for the
last 2-3 hours of firing time.
Last year, I bought a watt-hour meter for
can recommend a supplier. Wire a meter
base into the kiln circuit and use that to pay
your actual share of the electricity. By the way,
does your electricity really cost you \$0.376
per kwh?
Here in Lewiston, Idaho we pay
\$0.0765/kwh for a cost of \$9.16
to fire your kiln on high the entire
12 hours.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave.
Lewiston, Id 83501
U.S.A.
208-746-3724
wendtpot@lewiston.com
http://www.wendtpottery.com
http://UniquePorcelainDesigns.com
Alyssa wrote:
just got my first electric bill from my new landlord,
he calculated it from
a formula i gave him ... \$45 for 12 hours of firing.
have we computed this
wrong, because it seems awfully high.

here's how we did it:

this is my kiln:

208 Volts 48 Amps 9980 Watts
one phase
Copper Wire Size: 6
Breaker Size: 60
NEMA Receptacle Configuration: 6-50

this is what i gave to my landlord, in regard to
calculations:
"we multiply how many kilowatts it takes to fire a kiln
x cost of each
kilowatt hour.

my kiln is 9980 Watts. divide this by 1000 to find out
how many kilowatts
that is: 9.98 kilowatts. ergo, 9.98(x) x 12 firing
hours (y) = (\$Y)

this is what he gave me as a bill:
9.98kwh x 12hr x 0.376 = 45.03

did we go wrong somewhere? what am i missing?

### jonathan byler on wed 16 apr 08

looks like he is charging you 37.6 cents/KWH. that is a little
high. we pay about 9 or 10 cents here in alabama, IIRC. Even for
NYC 37.6 cents seems exhorbitant. find out what the true KWH charge
is from the electric co, and then talk to your landlord

jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849

On Apr 16, 2008, at 8:24 AM, Alyssa Ettinger wrote:

> just got my first electric bill from my new landlord, he calculated
> it from
> a formula i gave him ... \$45 for 12 hours of firing. have we
> computed this
> wrong, because it seems awfully high.
>
> here's how we did it:
>
>
> this is my kiln:
>
> 208 Volts 48 Amps 9980 Watts
> one phase
> Copper Wire Size: 6
> Breaker Size: 60
> NEMA Receptacle Configuration: 6-50
>
>
> this is what i gave to my landlord, in regard to calculations:
> "we multiply how many kilowatts it takes to fire a kiln x cost of each
> kilowatt hour.
>
> my kiln is 9980 Watts. divide this by 1000 to find out how many
> kilowatts
> that is: 9.98 kilowatts. ergo, 9.98(x) x 12 firing hours (y) = (\$Y)
>
>
> this is what he gave me as a bill:
> 9.98kwh x 12hr x 0.376 = 45.03
>
> did we go wrong somewhere? what am i missing?
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://
> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com

### Ingeborg Foco on thu 17 apr 08

Alyssa,

In your kiln instructions you should have something that tells you how many
kw it uses if set on low, med and high. I always kept track of my firing
(manual) and log for example 2 hours on low, 3 hours on med and then however
many hours to reach your required temp.
If for conversation sake it takes 10kw on low you would multiply by 2 (the
number of hours you ran on low) and then by the cost per kw and so forth.
You didn't say what your electric rates are but \$45 seems a bit high for one
firing.

If you keep track of it like that, you should be able to present the info to

--
Sincerely,

Ingeborg

www.thepottersworkshop.com

>
>
> > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:24:48 -0500> From: alyssa@ALYSSAETTINGER.COM>
> Subject: kiln firing costs, nyc> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > just got
> my first electric bill from my new landlord, he calculated it from> a
> formula i gave him ... \$45 for 12 hours of firing. have we computed this>
> wrong, because it seems awfully high.> > here's how we did it:> > > this is
> my kiln:> > 208 Volts 48 Amps 9980 Watts> one phase> Copper Wire Size: 6>
> Breaker Size: 60> NEMA Receptacle Configuration: 6-50> > > this is what i
> gave to my landlord, in regard to calculations:> "we multiply how many
> kilowatts it takes to fire a kiln x cost of each> kilowatt hour.> > my kiln
> is 9980 Watts. divide this by 1000 to find out how many kilowatts> that is:
> 9.98 kilowatts. ergo, 9.98(x) x 12 firing hours (y) = (\$Y)> > > this is what
> he gave me as a bill:> 9.98kwh x 12hr x 0.376 = 45.03> > did we go wrong
> somewhere? what am i missing?> >
> ______________________________________________________________________________>
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org> > You may
> look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your> subscription
> settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
> http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson
> who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
> http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>

### Alyssa Ettinger on thu 17 apr 08

so much info.

there is no way to put a meter on my 220 line; it connects to the entire
floor's electrical box, then goes down to a meter in the basement. at any
time there are xx people on the floor working.

my general electric is included in my rent, so it's a matter getting a
ball-park figure for firing.

i can tell you that i'm fast-firing that skutt 1027 to come 6, and it's

as for getting the electric company to come, doubtful. you're lucky if you
can get them to come out for anything here, unless you tell them something
is burning

### Arnold Howard on thu 17 apr 08

From: "Larry Kruzan"
> If this is not possible you might explain how a kiln works
> (intermittently
> not constant duty) and reach a compromise - my guess would
> be 50% duty
> cycle, but I have no real data for that, it may be less.

The newest digital controllers can calculate the firing cost
for you. This is a feature that I have wanted for many
years, and we finally have it.

Under Options, enter the kilowatts that the kiln draws and
the cost of electricity that you pay. The controller will
then count the number of minutes that the kiln is firing per
hour, convert that to kilowatt hours, and multiply by the
cost of electricity.

The amount of time that the kiln is actually firing varies
depending on firing rate and the ability of the kiln to
maintain that rate. At a slow rate, the kiln is firing only
a small percentage of the time. At a fast rate, the kiln may
be on continuously.

A high amperage kiln that is intentionally over-powered will
remain turned on fewer minutes per hour than a kiln that has
less power.

If you don't have a digital kiln, you can calculate firing
cost by obtaining an electric meter, as others have
suggested. We had one at Paragon many years ago. It was
mounted inside a metal box and plugged into a wall outlet.
The kiln plugged into a receptacle in the meter's metal box.
I used the meter to experiment with the firing cost. You can
too. For instance, how much would you save by firing faster?
The amount may be insignificant compared to the benefits of
a slower firing. With a meter or digital controller, you can
find out for yourself.

Sincerely,

Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com

### Larry Kruzan on thu 17 apr 08

Thanks Howard - you are a true asset to us all.

Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Arnold Howard
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 8:11 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: [CLAYART] kiln firing costs, nyc

From: "Larry Kruzan"
> If this is not possible you might explain how a kiln works
> (intermittently
> not constant duty) and reach a compromise - my guess would
> be 50% duty
> cycle, but I have no real data for that, it may be less.

The newest digital controllers can calculate the firing cost
for you. This is a feature that I have wanted for many
years, and we finally have it.

Under Options, enter the kilowatts that the kiln draws and
the cost of electricity that you pay. The controller will
then count the number of minutes that the kiln is firing per
hour, convert that to kilowatt hours, and multiply by the
cost of electricity.

The amount of time that the kiln is actually firing varies
depending on firing rate and the ability of the kiln to
maintain that rate. At a slow rate, the kiln is firing only
a small percentage of the time. At a fast rate, the kiln may
be on continuously.

A high amperage kiln that is intentionally over-powered will
remain turned on fewer minutes per hour than a kiln that has
less power.

If you don't have a digital kiln, you can calculate firing
cost by obtaining an electric meter, as others have
suggested. We had one at Paragon many years ago. It was
mounted inside a metal box and plugged into a wall outlet.
The kiln plugged into a receptacle in the meter's metal box.
I used the meter to experiment with the firing cost. You can
too. For instance, how much would you save by firing faster?
The amount may be insignificant compared to the benefits of
a slower firing. With a meter or digital controller, you can
find out for yourself.

Sincerely,

Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com

____________________________________________________________________________
__
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots2@visi.com

### Alyssa Ettinger on thu 17 apr 08

arnold, i have that on my kiln and i can do that.

lois, how much are your firings running?

### Steve Slatin on thu 17 apr 08

 Alyssa --   Well, one thing revealed -- you're paying for 12 hours and using a max of 8.  That means your \$45 fee is 1/3 too much right there.    I don't know the Skutt, but my guess is that the firing is at less than 100% 'on' in the early hours, also.  Steve Slatin -- Inanimate! Gooseberry paws dew clawsinanimate! (overheard in Pittsburgh)--- On Thu, 4/17/08, Alyssa Ettinger wrote: From: Alyssa Ettinger Subject: Re: kiln firing costs, nycTo: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORGDate: Thursday, April 17, 2008, 7:10 AM```so much info. there is no way to put a meter on my 220 line; it connects to the entire floor's electrical box, then goes down to a meter in the basement. at any time there are xx people on the floor working. my general electric is included in my rent, so it's a matter getting a ball-park figure for firing. i can tell you that i'm fast-firing that skutt 1027 to come 6, and it's about 8 hours each time. as for getting the electric company to come, doubtful. you're lucky if you can get them to come out for anything here, unless you tell them something is burning```

Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

### Alyssa Ettinger on thu 17 apr 08

well.

i just got off the phone with con-ed; they cannot tell me the price per
kilowatt hour because it changes every day, because they buy the electricity
and shop for better prices and it fluctuates during the year. additionally,
some building with high demand pay higher prices.

the price my landlord gave me: i sublease from him, and he got the # from
the big landlord as asn average of what was paid last month..

ergo... all we can do with that killowatt hour figure it use it.

so... how many kilowatt hours am i using? should i call skutt?

### Patty Kaliher on thu 17 apr 08

I live in New Jersey and am lucky in that our base charge is \$0.18/kwh from
8 am to 8 pm. And \$0.09/kwh from 8 pm to 8 am. Fire the kiln at night and
save money. We also do laundry and run the dishwasher after 8pm. When you
add the surcharges our average cost is \$0.14/kwh. I'm not sure how
widespread this practice is of charging differently during different hours.

Patty Kaliher

### WILLIAM JAMES on thu 17 apr 08

is your kiln on high for 12 hrs straight or does it cut on and off and star=
t out at a low point then go to full / high
=20
low=3D1/4 power for 2 hrs =3D=3D=3D=3D 1/4 of total Kwh X 2
=20
=20
i think???

> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:24:48 -0500> From: alyssa@ALYSSAETTINGER.COM> S=
ubject: kiln firing costs, nyc> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > just got my=
first electric bill from my new landlord, he calculated it from> a formula=
i gave him ... \$45 for 12 hours of firing. have we computed this> wrong, b=
ecause it seems awfully high.> > here's how we did it:> > > this is my kiln=
:> > 208 Volts 48 Amps 9980 Watts> one phase> Copper Wire Size: 6> Breaker =
Size: 60> NEMA Receptacle Configuration: 6-50> > > this is what i gave to m=
y landlord, in regard to calculations:> "we multiply how many kilowatts it =
takes to fire a kiln x cost of each> kilowatt hour.> > my kiln is 9980 Watt=
s. divide this by 1000 to find out how many kilowatts> that is: 9.98 kilowa=
tts. ergo, 9.98(x) x 12 firing hours (y) =3D (\$Y)> > > this is what he gave=
me as a bill:> 9.98kwh x 12hr x 0.376 =3D 45.03> > did we go wrong somewhe=
re? what am i missing?> > _________________________________________________=
_____________________________> Clayart members may send postings to: clayar=
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http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson=
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### John Rodgers on fri 18 apr 08

Hi Arnold,

This is terrific!! Is it possible to upgrade earlier digital
controllers to have this feature? Mine are fairly new - both acquired a
couple of years ago.

With this built in capacity, it is now possible to easily calculate the
cost of a given firing and more easily work that into the over all cost
of production of any given load of pots.

Arnold Howard wrote:
>
> The newest digital controllers can calculate the firing cost
> for you. This is a feature that I have wanted for many
> years, and we finally have it.
>
> Under Options, enter the kilowatts that the kiln draws and
> the cost of electricity that you pay. The controller will
> then count the number of minutes that the kiln is firing per
> hour, convert that to kilowatt hours, and multiply by the
> cost of electricity.
>

### Alyssa Ettinger on fri 18 apr 08

from what i understand, it's becoming more widespread around the county in
residential. in commercial, not so much.

### Lois Ruben Aronow on fri 18 apr 08

Between \$36 and 40, depending. I have a skutt 1027, but I have 3 phase, and
I understand I consume less electricity that a single phase. This certainly
was true in my old studio.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of
> Alyssa Ettinger
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 3:27 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: kiln firing costs, nyc
>
> arnold, i have that on my kiln and i can do that.
>
> lois, how much are your firings running?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> ________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages,
> change your subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the
> list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
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> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com

### Lois Ruben Aronow on fri 18 apr 08

You need to read the meter to determine how many kw hours you are using.
This is really essential, both to monitor your costs and as a tool to gauge

I can tell you this: I am not far from you, in Brooklyn, and the average
cost per kw is roughly 36 cents. Less overnight in the spring and early
fall; higher in summer daytimes. My set rate gives me the freedom to fire
anytime at the same price - your situation may be different. I mention it
because mine is not uncommon.

I average between 89 and 100 kw hours for a 12 hour glaze firing, depending
on my ramp schedule, time of day, and the health of my elements.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of
> Alyssa Ettinger
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 2:08 PM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: kiln firing costs, nyc
>
> well.
>
> i just got off the phone with con-ed; they cannot tell me the
> price per kilowatt hour because it changes every day, because
> they buy the electricity and shop for better prices and it
> fluctuates during the year. additionally, some building with
> high demand pay higher prices.
>
> the price my landlord gave me: i sublease from him, and he
> got the # from the big landlord as asn average of what was
> paid last month..
>
> ergo... all we can do with that killowatt hour figure it use it.
>
> so... how many kilowatt hours am i using? should i call skutt?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> ________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages,
> change your subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the
> list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com

### jonathan byler on fri 18 apr 08

sounds like con-ed is scamming you guys up there. Thank goodness for
de-regulation, no? I can't see how they can get away with changing
the rate every day. how is a business supposed to make any budgets
or even short term plans if they can't figure out their costs? And
how are you supposed to protect yourself from outright fraud? Looks
like yet another important market that is way too wide open to
manipulation. I guess I won't be living in NY anytime soon.

Best of luck to you getting this all sorted out. At those kind of
rates, I would install a meter directly on the kiln, as someone else
suggested, so that you have a nice log of what is going on with the
electricity that you are using. the situation you are in now looks
like it is ripe for abuse.

-jon

On Apr 17, 2008, at 1:08 PM, Alyssa Ettinger wrote:

> well.
>
> i just got off the phone with con-ed; they cannot tell me the price
> per
> kilowatt hour because it changes every day, because they buy the
> electricity
> and shop for better prices and it fluctuates during the year.
> some building with high demand pay higher prices.
>
> the price my landlord gave me: i sublease from him, and he got the
> # from
> the big landlord as asn average of what was paid last month..
>
> ergo... all we can do with that killowatt hour figure it use it.
>
> so... how many kilowatt hours am i using? should i call skutt?
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://
> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com

### Keith Gordon on fri 18 apr 08

I would think that Skutt should have estimated kWh usage if you provide =
them with the model and your typical firing schedule (hours on low=2C me=
dium=2C high etc if you use switches=2C or program input to electronic c=
ontroller)=2E=A0 You should get both a bisque =26 a glaze figure=2C sinc=
e the latter would use significantly more power=2C I expect=2E=A0 Howeve=
r=2C the age of the elements would potentially affect the power consumpt=
ion=2C so unless you install a submeter for the kiln alone=2C a precise =
usage amount is not possible=2ELet us know if they give you an answer th=
at is useful=2E----- Original Message -----From=3A Alyssa Ettinger Date=3A=
Thursday=2C April 17=2C 2008 9=3A47 pmSubject=3A Re=3A kiln firing cost=
s=2C nycTo=3A CLAYART=40LSV=2ECERAMICS=2EORG=3E well=2E=3E =3E i just go=
t off the phone with con-ed=3B they cannot tell me the =3E price per=3E =
kilowatt hour because it changes every day=2C because they buy the =3E e=
lectricityand shop for better prices and it fluctuates during =3E the ye=
ar=2E additionally=2C=3E some building with high demand pay higher price=
s=2E=3E =3E the price my landlord gave me=3A i sublease from him=2C and =
he got =3E the =23 from=3E the big landlord as asn average of what was p=
aid last month=2E=2E=3E =3E ergo=2E=2E=2E all we can do with that killow=
att hour figure it use it=2E=3E =3E so=2E=2E=2E how many kilowatt hours =
am i using=3F should i call skutt=3F=3E =3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=3E Clayart =
members may send postings to=3A clayart=40lsv=2Eceramics=2Eorg=3E =3E =
You may look at the archives for the list=2C post messages=2C change you=
r=3E subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here=3A =3E ht=
tp=3A//www=2Eacers=2Eorg/cic/clayart/=3E Moderator of the list is Mel Ja=
cobson who may be reached at =3E melpots2=40visi=2Ecom

### Arnold Howard on mon 21 apr 08

From: "John Rodgers"
> This is terrific!! Is it possible to upgrade earlier
> digital
> controllers to have this feature? Mine are fairly new -
> both acquired a
> couple of years ago.

John, the earlier controllers cannot be upgraded with the
new Firing Cost feature. This is because the new software is
incompatible with the earlier hardware.

Sincerely,

Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com

### May Luk on mon 21 apr 08

Hello;

I like my Paragon for the costing feature in the new Sentry controller. I can easily compare cost between regular cycle and the slow cool cycle. I can see the price difference if I load the kiln differently. Most people don't care, but I am tedious like that. (I put prices on all my material packages.)

Commercial electricity is costly in NYC, but the subway is cheap.

Regards
May
Brooklyn A.K.A. Kings County