Karl P. Platt on tue 29 oct 96
Jeff Lawrence ... finally popped for a professional spray gun...-- Binks
model 2001, with a 200 spray nozzle. Guys at the paint store made the
recommendation based on specific gravity and putative abrasiveness.
Subsequently, i've seen a Binks catalog with a number of others
specifically labeled "Glazes and enamels".<<
>>Binks tells me I can replace the nozzle and tip (for about half the price of t
>>Has anybody had great experiences with any particluar Binks models? Other manu
Yep. But it's been a while since I had to deal with spray guns, but back
when we used to spray a couple hundred gallons per day on two lines. We
used both Binks and DeVilbiss gear. Binks had several orifice/needle
options that lent well to certain special effects.
Glazes, as they contain silica, which is sand -- the same stuff used in
sandblasting -- will chew-up needles and heads of the wrong type, like,
now.
The guys at the paint store, were, to put it kindly, mistaken.
As you have seen, Binks (or Devilbiss) catalogues orifice/needle sets
specifically for ceramic glaze. The orifices and needles we used were
carbide coated and were designated as being for glaze duty. As I recall
they lasted under these service conditions described above for periods
of months. The glazes were raw Bristol type and these typically
contained 20 wt% or so of flint.
No, the carbide coated components aren't cheap, but neither is trashed
work.
Regards,
KPP -- pensando sobre Brasil
Timothy Young on wed 9 apr 97
Over a period of time I find that I am increasingly spraying glazes on my
pots rather than dipping them. In the past I have used some rather crude
external mix sprayers and even a Sears paint sparayer. More recently I have
been spraying with a Paasche air brush (the one with the 3oz jars). However;
I now find that the sprayer's tip has been eroded by the glaze - a vertical
line has been cut right through the entire point of the tip. Based upon the
extensive discussion regarding spay booths, I gather that many of the Clay
Art members also do a fair amount of glazing with a spray gun. I would like
all of you experienced "sparyers" to comment on the type of spray gun you
use, what type of sprayers you have tried in the past and why you have
settled on the one you are now using?
Don Jones on thu 10 apr 97
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
More recently I have
>been spraying with a Paasche air brush (the one with the 3oz jars). However;
>I now find that the sprayer's tip has been eroded by the glaze - a vertical
>line has been cut right through the entire point of the tip.
I use the Paasche air brush too but I replace the tip now and again
Don
Jeff Lawrence on thu 10 apr 97
Hi Timothy,
I bought a Binks gun from a local paint store and it did the same thing
your's did -- lose its hole tightness to glaze friction. I asked the group a
few months ago if Binks was to blame. TUrns out the paint store guys (and I,
sigh) were at fault. Get on the horn with Binks and tell them what you're
doing. Unlike a lot of equipment mfrs, they have an informed recommendation.
Spraying uses a lot of glaze and I can't reclaim. But once you narrow down
acceptable s.g. and viscosity, it's a very controlled application.
I'm happy with the Binks, but if we get sloppy with the cleaning, the white
gets very diverse.
Best regards,
Jeff Lawrence
Sun Dagger Design
ph/fax 505-753-5913
Grimmer on fri 11 apr 97
Don Jones wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> More recently I have
> >been spraying with a Paasche air brush (the one with the 3oz jars). However;
> >I now find that the sprayer's tip has been eroded by the glaze - a vertical
> >line has been cut right through the entire point of the tip.
>
Hi
I bought one of those Campbell-Hausfield automotive type guns from a
hardware store some years ago. It was good for about 2 years and
servicable for another 3. Parts are available in lots of hardware stores,
and they're cheap enough in the first place to just replace in the end. Use
yer old one to spry salt/soda DHMO into your kiln.
steve grimmer
snowy carterville, illinois
Timothy Young on fri 11 apr 97
Don,
Unfortunateley, the tip of this Paasche glaze sprayer is not replaceable.
The entire body must be replaced.
Ric Swenson on fri 11 apr 97
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hi Timothy,
>
>I bought a Binks gun from a local paint store and it did the same thing
>your's did -- lose its hole tightness to glaze friction. I asked the group a
>few months ago if Binks was to blame. TUrns out the paint store guys (and I,
>sigh) were at fault. Get on the horn with Binks and tell them what you're
>doing. Unlike a lot of equipment mfrs, they have an informed recommendation.
>
>Spraying uses a lot of glaze and I can't reclaim. But once you narrow down
>acceptable s.g. and viscosity, it's a very controlled application.
>
>I'm happy with the Binks, but if we get sloppy with the cleaning, the white
>gets very diverse.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Jeff Lawrence
>Sun Dagger Design
>ph/fax 505-753-5913
--------reply-----------------
Tim and Jeff,
Good questions good answers.
Binks is good equipment. The nozzles and rods you want to use are
EXPENSIVE, but worth the cost. The wearing parts...fluid nozzle and
adjusting rod/pin need to be made for ABRASIVE materials. Tell Binks
suppier that you are working with abrasive materials and they will get you
the pieces that are made for the V-7 or type 2000 gun....I think the metal
is tipped/coated with carborundum/hardened material...to withstand the
abrasiveness of the ceramic materials in glaze.
Usually these type guns use a large pressurized pot..or a quart size bottle
attached to the gun. You probably need an air compressor of some size to
run this equipment. They are industrial strength units. If you do a lot
of spraying they will work very well. I would explore buying used
equipment from your Binks dealer and then adding the more expensive nozzles
and tips.
This tidbit comes from my experience as plant manager for 14 years at
Bennington Potters where we glazed 6-7,000 pieces a week at four spray
booths, using all Binks equipment.
Ric Swenson, Bennington, Vermont
Happy potting!
david goldsobel on fri 11 apr 97
At the University which I attend, we have a bunch of the little three oz.
sprayer. After two to three months they all get that eroded grove in the
tip.
In the past the professor has inserted plastic sheaths down the shaft to
prevent this from occuring. An alternative is another spray gun made by
Pasche which I have. It is the L-4 modle which is a siphon
style. I find it to work really well. The great advantage is the tips are replac
able for about $1.50 a piece. Another advantage is the tip size comes in
four different sizes 1-4 with four being the largest. This allows one to
spray fluids of different viscosities. They sell for about $75.
david
Don Jones on sat 12 apr 97
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Don,
>
>Unfortunateley, the tip of this Paasche glaze sprayer is not replaceable.
> The entire body must be replaced.
Sorry,
I use a simple H type air brush and not the glaze sprayer. I do not use
much glaze at all but I have to replace the tips every 6 mo or so.
Don
Samantha Tomich on sat 12 apr 97
Airbrushing glazes: Do you need to do several coats? How do you do the
details over and over? I saw someone on a video and it looked like they
just did one coat, but my teacher said that he tried it before and it
takes ten coats. Why would people do it if it were so tedious? Are you
guys doing this? Thanks, Sam
Corinne P. Null on mon 7 jun 99
Took the plunge recently and got a 5 HP 20 gal. compressor, and a cheapo
spray gun to get started. Now I'd like to get a gun that will do
everything - spray alot or spray a little. Is there any such animal? Or,
am I stuck with having to get a Devilbis gun and a Paauche air brush?
And, what's the deal about HVLP? I still don't get it. Is it better? If I
get a HVLP gun will it run on my compressor?
Sorry to be such a dodo... I've tried to do the research, but sometimes
there's just no better resource than this list!
Corinne Null, Studio Potter
Bedford, New Hampshire
null@mediaone.net
George Koller on tue 8 jun 99
Corinne,
We do a lot of spraying in our studio and I have gone my usual route of
learning the hardway. Let me do a brain-dump of what I think I have
learned for you:
1. There are two types of HVLP:
a. orginal/significantly more expensive, and probably superior where
application is critical - it requires a special low pressure compressor.
b, The 2nd type is what I have used since it will work with a
"conventional" high pressure compressor. Basically this gun looks like
and hooks up like the conventional spray guns.
How does the HVLP gun compare to a conventional gun?
a. Mainly - when all else is said and done The HVLP gun will use lower
pressure at the nozzle.
b. Amount of material that gets wasted should be less - it is not atomized
and propelled here and yon.
c. You will need, or the gun will have in it some sort of pressure or flow
regulator.
NOTE: Our use of HVLP guns is probably less critical than many because we use
mostly thick layers and they are horizontal. However I did a number of simple
of tests between the particular gun I'm recommending as "good deal" and several
much more expensive models I used earlier and found this model to be as good or
better initially. And more critically, perhaps, controlling actual costs -
this gun has held up well to day-in/day-out usage.
Couple of hints from our experience for selecting:
a. If using with glazes then watch for replacement part
(needle/gaskets & nozzle) costs (!). These can be nutso - ie half cost of a new
gun or more?!
b. We like the gravity feed for these reasons:
1. Less tubes etc to clean or plug
2. Easy to view what you have left
3. I think not quite as sensitive to viscosity
c. We keep one for "dark" and one for "light" colors. I think this
was a good idea because just occasionally we would get a "spit" of dark in our
light glazes and this can cost a lot of time to clean up - and in long run no
cost anyway.
Some thoughts on glaze application:
a. We use only very finely ground materials in our glazes but
straining is still critical - we use 200 mesh although it takes extra time.
b. With less air pressure you are less likely to get "defects" caused
from the air pushing around on a wet surface.
c. Be aware of possible oil/moisture in your lines - you can spend
more to avoid this than your compressor cost. ( But even the cheapest
moisture seperator better than nothing...)
d. Buy good hose (it will last 5X longer for 1/3 more cost )
Now my favorite part: We have run across a good gun that we like and works for
us for only $59.99 and I think it has some good features for using with glazes:
Stainless needle - helps wear problem with glazes
Brass mixing chamber - easy to clean etc
Gravity Feed from nice 20Oz cup.
Nicely made (incredible, I think - light, good materials)
>>>THIS IS VERY CLOSE TO WHAT YOU CAN PAY FOR
A REPLACEMENT NOZZLE FOR THE MORE EXPENSIVE
MODELS.
No business connections with these folks etc......
Gun is Item# 38308-0ADA from HARBOR FREIGHT
Made by "Central Pneumatic"
1-800-423-2567
http://www.harborfreight.com
"Corinne P. Null" wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Took the plunge recently and got a 5 HP 20 gal. compressor, and a cheapo
> spray gun to get started. Now I'd like to get a gun that will do
> everything - spray alot or spray a little. Is there any such animal? Or,
> am I stuck with having to get a Devilbis gun and a Paauche air brush?
>
> And, what's the deal about HVLP? I still don't get it. Is it better? If I
> get a HVLP gun will it run on my compressor?
>
> Sorry to be such a dodo... I've tried to do the research, but sometimes
> there's just no better resource than this list!
>
> Corinne Null, Studio Potter
> Bedford, New Hampshire
> null@mediaone.net
F H Parker on tue 8 jun 99
Hi Corinne:
I used to own an automotive painting franchise. Before that, I did custom
spray finishes for furniture, signage etc. Learned a little about spray
guns along the way. Here are a few of them:
1) Just as there's no universal kitchen knife, there's no universal spray
gun. The best choice should relate back to what you're going to do with it,
how much/what type of compressed air you have and how much you're willing to
spend on it. The closest I've found to universal is the Divilbiss model
"MBC" with a pressure cup and a variety of fluid tips and air caps. With
this combination you can do everything from a microfine spatter, through
"cobwebbing" to standard spray finishes. It will also handle a wide range
of material viscosities from water-thin lacquers through medium-viscosity
catalyzed enamels. If it's still available today (last time I checked was
6-8 years ago) expect to pay in the $400-$600 range for the whole garbanzo.
Even so, this gun is not designed for small jobs. It's great for finishing
the interior of a boat hull, but far too cumbersome for a 6-inch barometer
case. There are also some very good Divilbiss and Binks automotive guns,
but face it--they're designed for painting cars, and that's what they do
best. You can also find some fairly decent "el cheapo" guns around. One of
my favorites is a little no-name "touch-up" gun I bought at Northern Tools
for $30 or so, and is small enough to be great for tiny jobs. I have also
used it on small items of furniture as well.
2) Compressor horsepower is every bit as meaningless as rated horsepower for
Sears tools. The seller rarely tells you electric motor horsepower can be
calculated many, many ways. One manufacturer's 5 horsepower motor might be
capable of twice the work of another's. The real measure of compressor
capability is delivered cubic feet per minute (CFM) at a specified pressure.
A compressor that can deliver 15 CFM at 40 PSI is a pea-shooter compared to
one that can provide 15 CFM at 175 PSI. Believe it or not, you can find
this range of differences on compressor labels, all rated at 5 horsepower.
3) Compressor capability is also a function of the type of pump used. The
"pump" is the actual compressor driven by the motor. Some pumps are
"single-stage." Others are "two-stage." "Two-stage" means the compressor
generally has at least 2 cylinders which operate as a team. The first (or
low pressure stage) provides compression of intake air at atmospheric
pressure. The second (or high pressure stage) takes this initially
compressed air and compresses it again to the final pressure. Generally,
commercial compressors are 2-stage, and home shop models are 1-stage.
Bottom line: 2-stage is usually best, most efficient and capable of higher
output pressures (typically 175 PSI compared to 125 PSI for 1-stage.)
4) So what? So when you go gun shopping, be sure to check the air
requirements of the gun you're about to buy against the delivery capability
(CFM @ PSI) of your compressor. A compressor capable of delivering 10 CFM
at 40 PSI won't handle a gun that requires 18 CFM at 50 PSI for long without
bogging down. Granted, most ceramics applications will not get anywhere
near these limits, but if you decide to use your compressor and gun to
refinish the dining room table, you might have a problem with a high-volume
gun, as most "real" spray guns are.
5) HVLP means "high volume/low pressure." This is a more environmentally
friendly gun than the conventional airspray guns are because they loose less
material into the atmosphere as a result of high pressure atomization. A
conventional gun operates in the 40-60 PSI pressure range in order to blast
a small stream of fluid into very small atomized droplets. This provides a
very even finish, especially where maximum dispersal of solids and rapid
drying are involved (such as "metallic" automotive finishes.)
Unfortunately, while this high dispersal action provides even finishes, it
also wastes huge amounts of paint by blasting atomized paint everywhere
except on the object being painted. Volatile organic solvents (VOC's) and
solids from this excess "overspray" enter the atmosphere as pollutants.
HVLP, on the other hand, uses a much lower pressure to atomize the paint
into larger droplets. This is accomplished by blowing a lot of air (high
volume) at low pressure (5 PSI plus or minus) through a larger sprayer
orifice. More paint gets to the object being painted, and less goes into
the air.
6) Downside of HVLP: The guns still don't provide the quality of finish a
conventional gun will. Also, be careful of getting caught up in the "I'm
saving the earth" movement for this reason. HVLP helps if your operation is
shooting gallons or tons of material per week. If you're a typical
independent craftsman who buys a gallon of lacquer every six months or so, I
would argue that the extra electricity you use for HVLP air more than makes
up for the added organics you put into the air with conventional equipment.
Remember, HVLP requires MUCH higher air volumes than conventional airspray
equipment, and this means you HAVE to have a bigger, high-output compressor.
If you're shooting inorganic glazes in aqueous media (or anything else in
aqueous media) we don't even need to have this conversation because HVLP
does nothing for you.
That's gotta be more than you wanted to know, but maybe some of it will
help...
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU] On Behalf Of
Corinne P. Null
Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 10:50 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: spray guns
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Took the plunge recently and got a 5 HP 20 gal. compressor, and a cheapo
spray gun to get started. Now I'd like to get a gun that will do
everything - spray alot or spray a little. Is there any such animal? Or,
am I stuck with having to get a Devilbis gun and a Paauche air brush?
And, what's the deal about HVLP? I still don't get it. Is it better? If I
get a HVLP gun will it run on my compressor?
Jeff Lawrence on tue 8 jun 99
Corinne Null was asking about spray guns:
>am I stuck with having to get a Devilbis gun and a Paauche air brush?
>
>And, what's the deal about HVLP? I still don't get it. Is it better? If I
>get a HVLP gun will it run on my compressor?
Hi Corinne,
Some time back I followed a clayarter's advice and bought a little HVLP
sprayer from Harbor Freight that works like a champ and cost 80 us dollars.
It has a 500 cc reservoir on top for gravity feed (and ease in cleanup --
no hoses to flush!)
It replaced a Binks setup that was not HVLP. The Binks put out more air
than my hood could handle, while HVLP means more material (high volume)
deposition at a lower air pressure (low pressure). It means less glaze dust
in your eyes and hair, and less trying to get around your respirator. A
giant step forward IMNSHO.
Thanks to whoever recommended that Harbor Freight gun!
Best,
Jeff
Jeff Lawrence Sun Dagger Design
jml@sundagger.com Rt. 3 Box 220
www.sundagger.com Espanola, NM 87532
vox 505-753-5913 fax 505-753-8074
Richard Aerni on wed 9 jun 99
Hello Corinne,
I saw that you'd gotten some very informative responses to your question
about spray guns from folks. I've filed them for my own info...however,
I've come at the question from another angle in my own work, and thought
I'd briefly go into it in case it might be of help to you. I single
fire, and spray almost all of my glazes. I'd also looked into HVLP
sprayers, but after checking with some folks who were already using them,
decided they weren't for me. Most of them use an overhead
reservoir/gravity feed in order to get the glaze/slip to the sprayer.
This is great if you are spraying large quantities of a single glaze, but
from what I've gathered, it's rather more difficult to make the quick
change from one glaze to another, and that's very important in the way I
spray my glazes. I need to be able to go from glaze to glaze quickly (in
seconds), and often have many small pots of glaze around, as a piece will
often have 6-8 glazes on it, which need to be quickly overlaid/feathered.
So, the HVLP system didn't seem right for me. Other spray systems also
had their drawbacks...airbrushes and paint sprayers tended to clog easily
or have delicate parts that wore down quickly from the abrasive glazes
passing through. The mouth atomizers just didn't appeal to me, as I
make a lot of pots, and have no desire to be hyperventilating for much of
the day while glazing. The critter spray gun would be fine, except that
it lacks a feature which allows you to vary the amount of glaze that you
spray on a piece. Commercial sandblasters also lack this feature, and
require one to stop spraying in order to thread in another size orifice
for a different size/volume of spray.
Soooo, what I've ultimately come up with is a sandblaster manufactured by
the Gilmore Corporation, which functions much like the critter, except
that it has the capacity to vary the flow/amount of glaze being
introduced to the airstream while you are spraying. This feature makes
it very useful, and very valuable to me, glazing as I do. Essentially,
it has a moving airstream from your compressor, and uses the moving air
to aspirate the glaze media from a tube which reaches into the glaze
reservoir below (it comes with a screw in one quart jar, but I tend to
use those one quart plastic yogurt containers as my glaze holders). The
flow of glaze is regulated by a 1/8 th inch opening in the spray gun
which revolves, so that you can spray with it wide open, or close it down
easily to decrease the amount of glaze sprayed. It is a rugged, and
cheap tool. I've used mine for over twelve years now.
They used to be sold via the Northern Tool Catalogue, but now you have to
contact the company. The tool is called the Handi-Sand Blaster, 70HDG,
and can be ordered via their toll free number 1-800-458-0107. Ask for
Sharon Suder in the Industrial Division. If you order just one, it will
cost you $49.95; I order them by the dozen and sell them to other
potters, and the price I get is $30.08. In my opinion, they are well
worth the $50.
At any rate, if you've got the compressor, you may want to give this baby
a try, if it seems to fit your work patterns.
Good luck with this,
Richard Aerni
Bloomfield, NY
Corinne P. Null wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Took the plunge recently and got a 5 HP 20 gal. compressor, and a cheapo
> spray gun to get started. Now I'd like to get a gun that will do
> everything - spray alot or spray a little. Is there any such animal? Or,
> am I stuck with having to get a Devilbis gun and a Paauche air brush?
>
> And, what's the deal about HVLP? I still don't get it. Is it better? If I
> get a HVLP gun will it run on my compressor?
>
> Sorry to be such a dodo... I've tried to do the research, but sometimes
> there's just no better resource than this list!
>
> Corinne Null, Studio Potter
> Bedford, New Hampshire
> null@mediaone.net
Corinne P. Null on fri 11 jun 99
The original query to this list stated:
>there's just no better resource than this list!
AMEN! I got such wonderful advice! Instead of spending bundles, I'm
getting the best of both worlds for a song. I've decided to order two
guns - the gravity fed HVLP from Harbor Freight for those pots that get a
single color base coat without a lot of overspray waste, and the Handi-Sand
Blaster that is so easily switched from one glaze to another for layering
effects. I'll put a T on my compressor line so they both can be hooked up at
once, ready to use. All this for less than what I had expected to spend for
one! Can't wait to get them and use them. Oops... better get to the studio
and make some pots! At least now I'm motivated again. When they are all
coming out like crap, it's hard to keep plugging.
Bless you all!
Corinne Null, Studio Potter
Bedford, New Hampshire
null@mediaone.net
Scott Harrison on fri 7 nov 03
We bought the Harbor Freight HVLP spray setup for $70 to use at my High
School. Works great, easy to clean, and you can search the clayart
archives for many satisfied customers.
Scott Harrison
South Fork High School
Humboldt Redwoods
Where it finally rained today and extinguished the last of the fires...
Bill Merrill on mon 28 may 12
The Paasche model LSC is a good spray gun for glazes. It has 3 =3D
different size tips to choose from and they are easily changed. I use =3D
the largest one. This model spray gun works by spraying air over the =3D
tip which in turn creates a vacuum effect taking the glaze from the =3D
cannister. This spray unit costs about $85. You can get extra =3D
canisters for this model so you can change from one glaze to another =3D
easily.=3D20
=3D20
Another spray gun of the same type is the EZE sprayer. It has a plastic =
=3D
glaze container but is considerably less expensive at less than $30.
=3D20
Both of these guns can be purchased at Seattle pottery Supply. =3D
1-800-522-1975 or looked at on line.
=3D20
I also use a large older model Binks model 69 spray gun with a large =3D
size orfice and a stainless steel needle. This works well for more fine =
=3D
particle glazes and for gesso paint and for acrylic mediums I use on =3D
paintings. It was a much more expensive spray gun when new as it was =3D
made for the automotive industry.
=3D20
Life is too short to use inferior materials and eqiuipment. As the old =3D
saying goes, "you get what you pay for".
'
Bill=3D20
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