bhowe on tue 15 apr 97
Hi Folks,
I'm hoping this gets through. While I was away for a month in February
my husband "tidied" all my files and addresses and Clayart was one that
went through the tidying process and disappeared, so I guess we'll see.
It's nice to finally see my way (partially) through backed up orders and
get caught up on some of my e-mail. It was great to spend the month in
Chicago (became grandmother to a beautiful little girl - Soleil - who has
indeed become the sunshine of my life but is now waaaay too far away) and
visit some of the galleries and studios. However, I've paid the price in
getting caught up. Ah well, it was worth it.
Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone can help me with some kind of schedule
for firing down to cool the kiln. I'm firing a 40 cubic foot downdraft,
and have just recently started firing rutile and copper red glazes (what
fun!). I'd like to be able to fire them in the same kiln, just because
it would make life easier, and the reason for firing down is that the
rutile glazes tend to blister - less since I changed my bisque schedule,
but still a problem. I start reduction at 012, and reduce to the last 15
min., at which point I oxidize till I shut it down. So here are all my
questions:
If I fire down:
1. will it tend to overfire the glazes?
2. will I lose the red in the copper red glazes?
3. should I continue to reduce?
4. how long should I do it (schedule)?
5. will it solve the bubbling rutile problem?
I've also recently had a problem with volatizing cobalt (carbonate). Is
this due to the early reduction, or would it be more likely to have
something to do with the atmosphere in the kiln, as I've just recently
changed most of my glazes. Any help on this would be greatly
appreciated.
TIA
Barb
CLAY NECESSITIES
Barb Howe
212 Beaverglen Close
Fort McMurray, AB
(403) 791-1915
bhowe@ccinet.ab.ca
Marvpots@AOL.COM on thu 19 jul 01
Mel:
In your message of 7/11/01 you said "fire as usual. when kiln cools to 2000F
re/lite and hold for several hours" which I am about to do.
Prior to shut down the kiln was positioned for oxidation for a brief period.
I plan to relite the kiln without changing the oxidation arrangement of
damper, gas (damper fully open, air increased a bit from reduction mode) and
air.
Is that what you have been doing? I didn't think it made much sense to go
back into a reduction mode after I "cleansed" the atmosphere by running in
oxidation mode for 10 minutes.
I'll await your news.
Best regards.
Marvin Flowerman (marvpots@aol.com)
Hank Murrow on thu 19 jul 01
Marvin wrote;
>Mel:
>In your message of 7/11/01 you said "fire as usual. when kiln cools to 2000F
>re/lite and hold for several hours" which I am about to do.
>Prior to shut down the kiln was positioned for oxidation for a brief period.
> I plan to relite the kiln without changing the oxidation arrangement of
>damper, gas (damper fully open, air increased a bit from reduction mode) and
>air.
>Is that what you have been doing? I didn't think it made much sense to go
>back into a reduction mode after I "cleansed" the atmosphere by running in
>oxidation mode for 10 minutes.
>
>I'll await your news.
Mel answered;
anyway.
i close the kiln at cone 10.
let it cool to 2000.
turn one burner back on half.
open damper a bit...so that i can
hold the 2000. easy to find the place...watch your
pyrometer.
two hours.
easy.
i am sure that some will want to put it back into light
reduction...should not hurt...but, then, most say
it will not do any good...but, who knows.
someone will do it and get great results.
And Hank replies to both:
I cool slowly after shutting of the kiln with the damper closed to
1900 F to 2000 F. At that time, I re-light the burners with no air until
the flame stabilizes, then add air. As Mel said, watch your pyrometer to
assure a steady state, holding without climbing or falling temp. I hold
this oxidation condition for from 2 to 8 hours. Hey, set it up and go to
bed. Turn it off when you get up refreshed. color will be greatly
intensified in all microcrystalline glazes whose color is oat the surface.
Good Luck, Hank
Marvpots@AOL.COM on sat 21 jul 01
Many thanks to Mel and Hank for describing their method of slowly cooling a
gas kiln after they have reached a cone 10 level. I did precisely what they
recommended with excellent results; when cone 10 was down, top and bottom I
shifted from reduction to oxidation for 10 minutes and then shut down the
burners; restarted the burners when temperature declined to 2000F and with
some adjustments to gas, air and damper was able to hold temperature at 2000F
for a bit more than two hours while still in an oxidation mode. All glazes
appeared to be calm, even, no running, and all in all, a pleasing firing.
Is this not an extension of the advice Dannon Rhudy gave recently about
slowing down the cooling phase to get the best glaze results? I think so and
thanks to her also!
I'm a champion of Clayart and am grateful for the generous sharing of
knowledge and experience given by Mel, Hank, Dannon, Tom, Ron and others to
the rest of us.
Marvin Flowerman (marvpots@aol.com)
mel jacobson on sun 27 jan 02
if you learn anything on clayart, anything...listen
to ron's advice on firing.
we have a great deal of old bullshit to fight against.
years of mis information.
i have changed my entire firing technique in the last three
years.
long, long, slow bisque.
ten hour, early reduction(cone 011) glaze firing in my
gas kiln.
slow cooling, in fact re/lighting and holding 1900 f for three
hours.
this is all due to information gathered from top notch people
on clayart.
ron roy
nils lou
hank murrow
lowell baker
feriz delkic
information with a scientific background. not guessing.
research and new ideas. earth shaking differences.
the gas/electric kiln
black shino
the list is long.
now kurt wants to build the alabama saw dust injector.
(another smarty pants idea.)
if we can get folks to start thinking about clay standards
and learning about what we are buying...well, the world of
clay will change again.
clayart is here to make a difference...a major difference.
it is not a chat group...(although sometimes we chat.)
we exist to stir the pot. make a difference.
listen, try, learn and report.
that is the way.
mel
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Dannon Rhudy on sun 27 jan 02
>
......>now kurt wants to build the alabama saw dust injector.
>(another smarty pants idea.)........
I'm in. Let's do it.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Roger Korn on sun 27 jan 02
Just to reinforce Mel's comments: my gas kiln is a very light 4" fiber kiln. I used
to fire to ^10 in about 6 hours, having started reduction at ^06, then a 15 minute
oxy cycle at ^10. Shut it off, go back to bed, ready to open 12 hours later. OK
results.
Now I spend 12 hours to ^10, drop the temp 100F degrees, hold in oxy for 1 hour,
then fire down to 1800F over three hours, then shut off. Same glazes, but what
different, more beautiful, more complex results. Hard to believe the glazes were
the same. Up at NAU, I'm working with Jason Hess to incorporate firing chemistry
with glaze chemistry in the same course, trying to account for the vast differences
in these two "reg'lar reduction" firing schedules. Jason knows more about wood fire
than I'll ever know, so extending this chemistry approach with wood firing
experience has sparked a whole new set of ideas.
Just like everything else about ceramics, you open one door, all you see is five
more doors. Boredom? Not in this lifetime, that's for sure.
Roger
mel jacobson wrote:
> if you learn anything on clayart, anything...listen
> to ron's advice on firing.
>
> we have a great deal of old bullshit to fight against.
> years of mis information.
>
> i have changed my entire firing technique in the last three
> years.
>
> long, long, slow bisque.
> ten hour, early reduction(cone 011) glaze firing in my
> gas kiln.
> slow cooling, in fact re/lighting and holding 1900 f for three
> hours.
>
> this is all due to information gathered from top notch people
> on clayart.
>
> ron roy
> nils lou
> hank murrow
> lowell baker
> feriz delkic
>
> information with a scientific background. not guessing.
> research and new ideas. earth shaking differences.
>
> the gas/electric kiln
> black shino
> the list is long.
>
> now kurt wants to build the alabama saw dust injector.
> (another smarty pants idea.)
>
> if we can get folks to start thinking about clay standards
> and learning about what we are buying...well, the world of
> clay will change again.
>
> clayart is here to make a difference...a major difference.
> it is not a chat group...(although sometimes we chat.)
> we exist to stir the pot. make a difference.
> listen, try, learn and report.
> that is the way.
> mel
>
> From:
> Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
> web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Roger Korn
McKay Creek Ceramics
In AZ: PO Box 463
4215 Culpepper Ranch Rd
Rimrock, AZ 86335
928-567-5699 <-
In OR: PO Box 436
31330 NW Pacific Ave.
North Plains, OR 97133
503-647-5464
k.m.whipple@ATT.NET on mon 28 jan 02
I have pulled my nose out of "Mastering Cone 6 Glazes"
just long enough to ask this question:
I've got an old L&L with a perfectly serviceable kiln
sitter on it. If i want to soak at peak temperature,
slow the cooling, etc, how shall i approach it? My plan
is to put a cone 8 in the sitter, to prevent it from
shutting off, and then use visual cone packs to moniter
the temperature. (obviously i will not be wanting to
fire into the wee hours for this, hard to keep your wits
about you at 4 am)
The devilish details are things like, let's say i've
taken a nice long stroll up to a visual cone 6
softening, and i want to stay there... for how long? top
switch to medium, or do something to all the switches,
or what? i followed this thread last time it came up,
but still very cloudy about doing this with a sitter,
and without the help of computer controller or
thermometer.
thanks,
Kathy Whipple
Moth Wings Pottery
Brooker FL
P.S.
Thanks to Ron and John for this book, it's clearly going
to give me a lot to work on. For a LONG TIME. Viva la
Clayart!
Snail Scott on mon 28 jan 02
At 04:55 PM 1/28/02 +0000, you wrote:
>... My plan
>is to put a cone 8 in the sitter, to prevent it from
>shutting off, and then use visual cone packs to moniter
>the temperature...
>...let's say i've
>taken a nice long stroll up to a visual cone 6
>softening, and i want to stay there... for how long? top
>switch to medium, or do something to all the switches,
>or what?
This is pretty much what I do, with the ^8 in the sitter
and a cone pack at each level. When I'm just past ^5, I
take that opportunity to even out the kiln, which usually
means switching the hottest sections (for me, the top ring)
to medium for a while. I haven't got a pyrometer either,
so it's a bit of a guess, but on my kiln (an old Skutt)
switching even one ring to medium seems to prevent any
real heat rise in that temperature range, so I 'soak' by
waiting 'til ^6 starts tipping, then switch the hot ring
to medium and watch the cones go down. I keep this up for
maybe an hour, usually. Then I switch everything to low
and set the timer for three hours. That's a pretty arbitrary
choice, and I have no idea about the rate of cooling except
from looking at the color, but I like the matte glaze
results that I get this way, so it seems to work for me
A few experiments with soak length and cooling length will
give you your best idea of what works for your own kiln
and your own glazes. Keep a log of your methods and results.
Whatever works best for you is the right way to do it.
-Snail
-Snail
Harry in Iowa on mon 28 jan 02
Hi all,
The recent revelations concerning soak time and firing down sound =
great. Not too long ago there was a discussion concerning hard brick vs. =
soft brick and how it took so long to fire and one way, you could fire =
faster and much more fuel efficiently and the other way it took forever =
and wasted fuel. I tried to find this subject in the archives but alas I =
don't know the right question to ask. Never the less, long firing times =
were bad, fast was good. Hard brick was bad and soft brick was good or =
whatever. Have we now had a reversal on that point? Would the old huge =
pile kiln that takes forever to heat up and even longer to cool down do =
a better job on these ^6 glazes then the fast fire kilns?=20
Havng looked into glass melting/slumping there is a sweet spot =
temperature for tempering glass, I assume this must be relevant to =
glazes.I haven't done any yet but is this comparing apples to apples or =
apples to motor oil?=20
I admit to being a rank amateur but this is ringing bells and my =
hearing checks out OK. What do you think?
Harry in Iowa
Lone potter wondering why my red came out brown
I would like to apolgize for the "what it grog" subject line, it has =
been bothering me no end. We'uns here in Iowa likes 'ta speak proper =
english, don'tcha know? Ain't like we ain't got no fotchen up.
Gavin Stairs on tue 29 jan 02
Hi Harry,
Like so many things, it depends on what you want. If you are firing your
kiln simply to get the ware up to maturity in a hurry, like most large
potteries, then you want maximum fuel efficiency and rapid turn around to
maximize the utility of the kiln. Then you want a fibre kiln with no hard
brick anywhere.
However, if you are searching for the elusive fire markings, or trying for
the world's biggest crystals, or hoping for the happy accident, or looking
for ash glaze dripping from every pot that isn't encrusted with a rime of
gritty slush, why then you may not want the kiln to fire in ten minutes,
and cool in five. Hard brick may be just the ticket.
It's not a simple matter of one design for all purposes. You have to find
the solution to your own problems, which may be a compromise, like fibre
and firing down, or a specialized kiln, like a hard brick, take no
prisoners, wood fired, ash glaze kiln. Every kiln design will produce a
different result, like every still design produces a different
whiskey. When you read the posts to this list, try to discern what the
intent of the poster/kiln designer is, and learn by what they do to get
their desires, and by the success they have, or don't have.
Happy kiln designing, Gavin
At 07:52 PM 28/01/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
> The recent revelations concerning soak time and firing down sound =
>great. Not too long ago there was a discussion concerning hard brick vs. =
>soft brick and how it took so long to fire and one way, you could fire =
>faster and much more fuel efficiently and the other way it took forever =
>and wasted fuel. I tried to find this subject in the archives but alas I =
>don't know the right question to ask. Never the less, long firing times =
>were bad, fast was good. Hard brick was bad and soft brick was good or =
>whatever. Have we now had a reversal on that point? ...
Gavin Stairs
Stairs Small Systems
525 Canterbury Road
London, Ontario
Canada N6G 2N5
telephone: (519) 434-8555.
email: stairs@stairs.on.ca
Attention!
On February 30, 2001 we moved to the above address from our
old address:
1A - 921 College Street
Toronto, Ontario, Canada M6H 1A1
phone: (416)530-0419 stairs@stairs.on.ca
Cindy Strnad on tue 29 jan 02
Dear Harry,
First, your red came out brown for one of two
reasons, assuming it is an iron red. Either it is
not a good iron red (there are lots out there) or
it did not have time to form the crystals which
would have caused the red color. If you can, put
your brown pieces in with the next bisque load,
then fire the load nice and slow, at least until
500=BA F or so, to keep the glazed pieces from
rupturing. Because they are covered (nearly) with
matured glaze, they will not be able to exhaust
gasses as well as a piece with a raw glaze. That
aside, bisque should always fire slowly,
especially at first, to avoid moisture-induced
explosions (from liquid suddenly converting to
steam) and to allow for burn-out of organic
materials.
Firing speeds: It is almost always better to fire
and cool slowly. If you're working in ^6 electric,
I highly recommend Ron Roy & Jon Hesselberth's new
book, "Mastering ^6 Glazes", which you can order
directly from them at
http://www.masteringglazes.com. It has advice on
firing schedules and many other things you don't
even yet know you need to know. Good luck!
Cindy Strnad
Earthen Vessels Pottery
RR 1, Box 51
Custer, SD 57730
USA
cindy@earthen-vessels-pottery.com
http://www.earthen-vessels-pottery.com
Cindy Strnad on tue 29 jan 02
Dear Kathy,
I have (in addition to my controlled kilns) a
small kiln with 5 switches which need manual
flipping. When I want to soak in this kiln, I prop
the master switch up with a stick and turn off a
couple of elements. This way, the kiln will slowly
lose temperature, so there isn't the danger of
over-firing my work if some compelling thing
should happen to make me forget about that stick.
It *will* happen eventually, no matter how
conscientious you are, by the way. No one's
immune. You have to know your kiln, and know how
many elements you must switch off to prevent the
temperature from stabilizing or continuing to
climb.
You don't want the temp to stabilize, because if
it does, your cone level will continue to climb
until you may fire your kiln 2 or 3 cones higher
than you intended. Even though the temp remains
the same, the heat work continues--like leaving
your turkey in the oven 3 hours too long at a
perfect temperature. It won't escalate above that
temperature, but the bird will be over-cooked
never-the-less.
Working without an electronic controller, firing
down is guess-work, but you can do it. I left my
little Geil with three switches on (I have learned
from experience that this kiln is not capable of
reaching ^6 with only three elements) and yes,
this was that one time when I did forget about it.
I had intended to let it fire down overnight, then
turn it off in the morning. (It was a very late
night and a very early morning, so this isn't as
much time as it sounds like.) Well, next morning I
overslept slightly and had to rush, and guess
what? I left that little kiln burning all day. I
was very anxious, but the glazes were some of the
most beautiful I've ever seen come out of one of
my kilns. But I repeat and emphasize---***Never***
prop the main switch unless you turn off enough
elements that you KNOW the kiln cannot continue to
increase or to maintain its temperature. If you
are sitting by the kiln in a chair, staring at the
glow under the lid, something will still happen to
distract you.
So, best wishes, and I hope this helps.
Cindy Strnad
Earthen Vessels Pottery
RR 1, Box 51
Custer, SD 57730
USA
cindy@earthen-vessels-pottery.com
http://www.earthen-vessels-pottery.com
Ron Roy on fri 1 feb 02
Another excelent one - you are something else.
I recommend attaching yourself to the kiln - with a chain - just long
enough to do whatever else you want to - Ok - I know but at least a timer
taped to forehead.
RR
>I have (in addition to my controlled kilns) a
>small kiln with 5 switches which need manual
>flipping. When I want to soak in this kiln, I prop
>the master switch up with a stick and turn off a
>couple of elements. This way, the kiln will slowly
>lose temperature, so there isn't the danger of
>over-firing my work if some compelling thing
>should happen to make me forget about that stick.
>It *will* happen eventually, no matter how
>conscientious you are, by the way. No one's
>immune. You have to know your kiln, and know how
>many elements you must switch off to prevent the
>temperature from stabilizing or continuing to
>climb.
>
>You don't want the temp to stabilize, because if
>it does, your cone level will continue to climb
>until you may fire your kiln 2 or 3 cones higher
>than you intended. Even though the temp remains
>the same, the heat work continues--like leaving
>your turkey in the oven 3 hours too long at a
>perfect temperature. It won't escalate above that
>temperature, but the bird will be over-cooked
>never-the-less.
>
>Working without an electronic controller, firing
>down is guess-work, but you can do it. I left my
>little Geil with three switches on (I have learned
>from experience that this kiln is not capable of
>reaching ^6 with only three elements) and yes,
>this was that one time when I did forget about it.
>I had intended to let it fire down overnight, then
>turn it off in the morning. (It was a very late
>night and a very early morning, so this isn't as
>much time as it sounds like.) Well, next morning I
>overslept slightly and had to rush, and guess
>what? I left that little kiln burning all day. I
>was very anxious, but the glazes were some of the
>most beautiful I've ever seen come out of one of
>my kilns. But I repeat and emphasize---***Never***
>prop the main switch unless you turn off enough
>elements that you KNOW the kiln cannot continue to
>increase or to maintain its temperature. If you
>are sitting by the kiln in a chair, staring at the
>glow under the lid, something will still happen to
>distract you.
Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513
Ron Roy on fri 1 feb 02
Hi Kathy,
First thing is to get a pyrometer - they are not expensive and will make
the job much easier.
So the cone falls - to where ever you want it to - you then turn all
switches to low - watch the pyrometer to get some idea when you want to
stop firing down - best to time it so you can use the sitter timer to shut
off.
This is tricky - you don't want to leave your kiln unattended - especially
when you are tired - easy to forget it - use a kitchen timer to remind you
to check to see if it is off - always turn a kiln off at the breaker box -
that way - if contacts get welded together you won't have a melt down.
Save up and get a controller - they are a wonder.
RR
>I've got an old L&L with a perfectly serviceable kiln
>sitter on it. If i want to soak at peak temperature,
>slow the cooling, etc, how shall i approach it? My plan
>is to put a cone 8 in the sitter, to prevent it from
>shutting off, and then use visual cone packs to moniter
>the temperature. (obviously i will not be wanting to
>fire into the wee hours for this, hard to keep your wits
>about you at 4 am)
>The devilish details are things like, let's say i've
>taken a nice long stroll up to a visual cone 6
>softening, and i want to stay there... for how long? top
>switch to medium, or do something to all the switches,
>or what? i followed this thread last time it came up,
>but still very cloudy about doing this with a sitter,
>and without the help of computer controller or
>thermometer.
Ron Roy
RR# 4
15084 Little Lake Rd..
Brighton,
Ontario, Canada
KOK 1H0
Residence 613-475-9544
Studio 613-475-3715
Fax 613-475-3513
John K Dellow on fri 21 nov 03
OK,
what do you think it will do with dolomite glazes which are fired to
C10 reduction ?
I will be firing on monday and think I might try this. Some are colored
with chrome. and
one with 4% iron and 1% illmanite.
John
John Dellow "the flower pot man"
From the land down under
Home Page http://www.welcome.to/jkdellow
http://digitalfire.com/education/people/dellow/
--
John Dellow "the flower pot man"
From the land down under
Home Page http://www.welcome.to/jkdellow
http://digitalfire.com/education/people/dellow/
Nancy Briggs on sun 18 oct 09
I would like to know more about downfiring. I have always oxidized
at the end of red. firing but just for 5 min or so. What effect has
downfiring on general reduction look, and esp copper reds. Glazes
in our firings include, copper reds (CHun) , Rhodes 32 "white",
tenmoku, Hamada Green, Oribe Green and Shino carbon trap.. I
remember hearing many years ago that one couldn't get good copper
reds in the same firing as iron reds. Thanks for your comments.
Eva Gallagher on sun 18 oct 09
Hi Nancy,
We get great copper reds as well as iron reds in the same firing. We do a
body redux around cone 012 ( as suggested in John Britt's book) and a then
light to med redux until about cone 8 and then reox until cone 10 is down -
this can take up to two hours. Steven Hill does this long reox (if I
remember correctly) and it really does improve the brightness of the colour=
s
for us as well. I also find that I get less blistering in the fake ash
glazes that way. We also slow cool around 1900 for several hours. Peter
Pinnel wrote a great article in Clay Times several years ago - explaining
that the body redux should really be called glaze reduction as that is when
the copper gets reduced.
Eva Gallagher
Deep River, Ontario
http://stevenhilljourneyworkshopjuly2008.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Briggs"
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 8:01 PM
Subject: firing down
>I would like to know more about downfiring. I have always oxidized
> at the end of red. firing but just for 5 min or so. What effect has
> downfiring on general reduction look, and esp copper reds. Glazes
> in our firings include, copper reds (CHun) , Rhodes 32 "white",
> tenmoku, Hamada Green, Oribe Green and Shino carbon trap.. I
> remember hearing many years ago that one couldn't get good copper
> reds in the same firing as iron reds. Thanks for your comments.
>
>
Bob Johnson on mon 19 oct 09
Does anyone use a similar reduction/oxidation firing schedule at ^6? If so,
when do you do start your reoxidation?--and does it make any difference
whether the reox is on the way up or down?
Bob Johnson
Roseburg, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: Eva Gallagher [mailto:galla@MAGMA.CA]
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: firing down
Hi Nancy,
We get great copper reds as well as iron reds in the same firing. We do a
body redux around cone 012 ( as suggested in John Britt's book) and a then
light to med redux until about cone 8 and then reox until cone 10 is down -
this can take up to two hours. Steven Hill does this long reox (if I
remember correctly) and it really does improve the brightness of the colour=
s
for us as well. I also find that I get less blistering in the fake ash
glazes that way. We also slow cool around 1900 for several hours. Peter
Pinnel wrote a great article in Clay Times several years ago - explaining
that the body redux should really be called glaze reduction as that is when
the copper gets reduced.
Eva Gallagher
Deep River, Ontario
http://stevenhilljourneyworkshopjuly2008.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Briggs"
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 8:01 PM
Subject: firing down
>I would like to know more about downfiring. I have always oxidized
> at the end of red. firing but just for 5 min or so. What effect has
> downfiring on general reduction look, and esp copper reds. Glazes
> in our firings include, copper reds (CHun) , Rhodes 32 "white",
> tenmoku, Hamada Green, Oribe Green and Shino carbon trap.. I
> remember hearing many years ago that one couldn't get good copper
> reds in the same firing as iron reds. Thanks for your comments.
>
>
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